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Switch to Forum Live View ...the psychology of Moses.....
5 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2009 - 1:04PM #41
Anesis
Posts: 1,543

Like all of us, Moses had roles. He was certainly all you mentioned, each at different times in his life, kind of like a change of career. He went from being a prince advocate/murderer, to shepherd, husband and father, to deliverer and leader, to law-maker (although I question this - to me it seems God is the law-maker and Moses was a messenger, transmitting the law from his Friend (God called him friend, didn't he?) to the people.


Still in the process of changing careers myself, I know about the reluctance that might go along with that change. Changing it is not something I am willingly doing, but God has called me to it, and so I obey. In psychology, we know that even life experiences as an adult continue to shape personality; however, a person's basic personality is formed early on. Moses' personality (partly genetic pertaining to things like temperament) was basically shaped already before he left Egypt. We don't know when he found out about being part Hebrew, but he apparently either grew up with, or became, angry with the Egyptian who was mistreating a slave. He was angry enough to kill. Was he raised in a stressful palace where the pressures of princedom got to him? Who knows? But the experience of killing certainly shaped him as a person. And then what of the years he spent in the desert? The acceptance and love of his family (in-laws) there had a huge impact on him...so much that he did not want to give it up. Perhaps it was healing for him to remain in it rather than have to go back and face the "ghosts of Moses past"...


The biggest thing of all, though, is his confrontation with God. Can you imagine the impact that would have on who a person is at the very core?


Moses sounds like a very passionate man, who was possibly easily angered, but who loved and protected those he identified with. He was steadfast and determined, and he loved peace. He felt most comfortable in his own routine and probably preferred "tried and true" rather than a life of adventure and thrill-seeking; he resisted change. He was a hard worker and he was a steady, competent presence. He tried to avoid responsibility when it did not suit him. He was probably on the shy, quiet side and was really quite content to stay in the background, not needing recognition.Most of all, Moses loved God, and even though he tried to avoid the responsibility God called him to, he was obedient in the end. Imo, from what I can glean from his life.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2009 - 5:11PM #42
Leight
Posts: 1,438

.....  and perhaps when we see Moses, it is God who is speaking of Himself,.... for it is God who must wander in the desert of this World (its night/unrighteousness/satanic kingdom/ect.)  whilst another  king "owns" and shepherds Gods flock unto destruction....even Jethro was just another unrealized Pharaoh for Moses and his seed.... and it was God who was without conversation and could no longer speak, and had given up all eloquence and who in all measures of power, was now deaf, dumb and blind and really sought another of His own Seed for deliverance of  Israel as Aaron/Jesus, and so God pointed toward His Word, His covenant established with Abraham to deliver Israel....  perhaps it was the failed dispair of God upon the Cross that we ultimately see that Moses was made into, humbled until it was said of him, that he, Moses, "was the most humble man on earth", even as the Christ was lowely in heart, and though a Son, "He learned obediance through the things He suffered".... crucified.... until the Ressurection before the Burning Bush.... are not we all being made into His image?.... and "the steps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord"....the dialogue before the "Burnng Bush", was more than anything "illustrative" of Gods Work upon  Moses and of Gods almost perfect work of humbling Moses.... it being impossible to perfectly humble the flesh...   and so God questioned Moses, a Moses who now sought not to speak or be active or in any fashion participatory in his own will....  who knows how many failures Moses had with the sheep on the backside of the desert until he too was a man of sorrows and familiar with grief......   perhaps too with us that we might become part of Gods answer for answered prayer, as God always and only sends His Word, Jesus... to the world that He loves.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2009 - 11:15PM #43
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Jun 26, 2009 -- 5:11PM, Leight wrote:


.....  and perhaps when we see Moses, it is God who is speaking of Himself,.... for it is God who must wander in the desert of this World (its night/unrighteousness/satanic kingdom/ect.)  whilst another  king "owns" and shepherds Gods flock unto destruction....even Jethro was just another unrealized Pharaoh for Moses and his seed.... and it was God who was without conversation and could no longer speak, and had given up all eloquence and who in all measures of power, was now deaf, dumb and blind and really sought another of His own Seed for deliverance of  Israel as Aaron/Jesus, and so God pointed toward His Word, His covenant established with Abraham to deliver Israel....



Leight,  What I'm seeing isn't the psychology of Moses, but the speculations of Leight, as to why Moses and GOD acted the way they did. That makes GOD on the same level as man.  However, God's scriptures reveals that "we" should be brought back to the image of GOD---which "we" lost when Adam sinned.  As Phil.2:5, declares, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:" Therefore, it isn't  the "Psychology of Moses", but the willing psychology of Jesus in perfect obedience to the Father that is "required of man"


I see God in perfect control of all things.  Never being Deaf, dumb, and blind Or having to stoop to man's reasoning for answers.(I've already shown that GOD'S REASONING IS GREATLY ABOVE MAN'S.)  God's use of Moses wasn't just to "deliver Israel from Egypt." But to bring mankind back to a Loving relationship to HIM. (That was a mixed multitude which came out of Egypt; and all were to be governed by the same laws.)


When Jesus was on earth, IT WASN'T: "for it is God who must wander in the desert of this World". Jesus came to "seek and save that which was lost". That is the purpose of the salvational plan.(there has always been a "remnant"). I understand where you are coming from.


It is Christ who is the pattern for all, not Moses. Moses was only reflecting a Christ-like character.  Willing to be USED OF GOD THE FATHER. 


 All things were settled from the foundation of the world.God didn't create mankind with some to be "Saved" and other's lost/to perish. 2Pet.3:9, "[color=blue]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."  Notice these positives: Enoch walked with God and was taken. Elijah was taken.  Moses Body was disputed, but was at the transfiguration. (David is still in the grave. but, is among the faithful.)


As a friend of Jesus/GOD, one has to LOVE HIM and be Faithful and Obedient to all HE Says/Commands.(A hearer and doer.)


 


 

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2009 - 4:55PM #44
Leight
Posts: 1,438

...you are "correct" sincerely, but can it not be said, that until Jesus was raised from the dead, not one person was saved.... indeed, if He had not been crucified, and raised from the dead; no one of the seed of Adam would know salvation....  for there is no other Name given under Heaven whereby we must be saved....   so in a sense He as Moses did shepherd a doomed herd of sheep in the shadow of Pharoah... and even Moses, because of the sins of the people, after a heard and denied prayer, ( Garden of Gethsame like, "If it be possible let this cup be taken away from Me") went to the mountain top and was slain by God


    No one could be saved under the law or its rituals....  rituals which all pointed to Him, the Christ.. the sinless Lamb of God..


...and of Moses, wasn't it a pattern of God to use the Prophets as illustrations of Himself and His relationship to His people,  re: Hosea and Gomer... married to the backslider..... Abraham in his wanderings seeking the city of God, Heaven...  Jeremiah the weeping prophet... whose head was a "fount of tears", as if God Himself, were weeping with prayer, filling bottles....  even you and I now, Sincerely, if we be saved, and are His vessels, are His epistels to our world even now, and in the best sense, if we be crucified with Christ, and the life that we now live we live by faith in the Son of God....  even in the trials and persecutions that we are called to so that the watching world can see the ways of God in us...  His Ambassadors...  Jesus completely identifies with us, re: Saul... "Why persecutest thou Me?"..... in Him we live and move and have our being....     the end of the book of Lamentations was no accident, it is where the flesh always leads us...  even now we too are object lessons of the very worse being recipents of the very best, Gods transforming grace and mercy being lavished upon the lowest of humanity...   again a picture in reverse of the Cross wherein the Very Best, was treated as the very worst...


    even Moses was the only male his age alive at the time ( all the other boys his age haveing been thrown into the Nile), and too as Jesus, who because of the persecution was the only Jewish boy His age... indeed, Jesus  was even hid in Egypt, thusly in a reverse sense, recalling and identifying with Moses, who too was hid in Egypt.... Moses was able to go back to Egypt when those who sought his life died, and too Jesus went back home after those who sought His life too died...         I think we too will be very surpised one day, when we see how the Lord has identified with our lives, through Scripture, so that He too can truly say and be our faithful High Priest who can identify with us in all our infirmities.... homeless, lied on, denied justice, beaten unmercifully, spat on, poor, lonely beyond comphrension (Jesus had no spouse), ugly (He had no form or comliness or beauty that we should desire Him), born in manger (stable), drugged (the bitter gall), naked, called illegitimate, dserted, betrayed...ect...  all so that we all can be loved by God, the way we all need to be,  eternally infolded in His fold to wander and be slain no more....

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2009 - 8:00PM #45
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Jun 29, 2009 -- 4:55PM, Leight wrote:


...you are "correct" sincerely, but can it not be said, that until Jesus was raised from the dead, not one person was saved.... indeed, if He had not been crucified, and raised from the dead; no one of the seed of Adam would know salvation....  for there is no other Name given under Heaven whereby we must be saved....   so in a sense He as Moses did shepherd a doomed herd of sheep in the shadow of Pharoah... and even Moses, because of the sins of the people, after a heard and denied prayer, ( Garden of Gethsame like, "If it be possible let this cup be taken away from Me") went to the mountain top and was slain by God



Leight, in all your illustrations of this post, the psychology of Moses is one of submission and Obedience. The same is expected/demanded of all who will be counted as HIS CHILDREN. There will be no false professions of "following HIM." However, many will deceive themselves that they are secure in their beliefs. Matt.7:21-23.


I doubt that Enoch or Elijah would be tossed out of Heaven/ or even taken to heaven if (GOD) Jesus was doomed to failure.  It wasn't Jesus' Divinity which was uttering those words of "If it is possible, let this cup pass from me"-----that was the humanity---feeling all the "infirmities" of being "Human". Divinity spoke the , "never-the-less THY WILL BE DONE". "For this purpose, came I into the world." 


My point is that it wasn't Moses' psychology which was GOD was following, but Moses and the entire Scriptures are an unfolding of God's plan of Salvation for a Doomed world because of "DISOBEDIENCE". When one considers Rev.4:11, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."  When one looks at the overall picture, one sees that GOD had anticipated the possibility of the Human family failing just as Lucifer rebelled in heaven.------in the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".  However, Sin has to run its full course to the end so that ALL THE REDEEMED WILL UNDERSTAND THE ENORMOUS COST BY WHICH DISOBEDIENCE HAD COST A LOVING GOD AND WHY "TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAWS" CAN NOT BE TOLERATED. And that in the new heavens and new earth all will have God's Decalogue written in their hearts and minds.


 Moses went to the mountain top, but saved no one------not even his own life.  It was the "piller of cloud" and "piller of fire" which led the Israelites in the wilderness and to the "promised land". Moses only gave God's messages to the people. Again, I understand your thoughts and analogies.   As Jesus said, John 5:45, "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.'' (this, also, is a part of that "Go and tell whatsoever I have told you".)


Leight wrote: No one could be saved under the law or its rituals....  rituals which all pointed to Him, the Christ.. the sinless Lamb of God..<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Very true, No one is saved by the Decalogue without the Blood of Christ covering those prior transgressions. And the Sacrificial/ceremonial laws were only "shadows" of Christ's death  "For us/in our stead."


Leight Wrote: even Moses was the only male his age alive at the time ( all the other boys his age haveing been thrown into the Nile), and too as Jesus, who because of the persecution was the only Jewish boy His age...<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Just a minor correction, Not all Jewish male boys of Jesus' age,  Matt.2:16, "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts(meaning= boundaries)  thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men."

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2009 - 9:15AM #46
Leight
Posts: 1,438

....if Jesus had not been sucessful in His mission here on Earth, there would be no Heaven to expell anyone from....


 


...no Lamb on the throne... no opened scrolls, no reading of the book of life... no light there...  indeed  He, Himself,  as imperfection would be found still in Joseph of Aramatheas tomb......   if too in fact the World itself would have not dissolved upon His failure....    Satan would be upon the Throne and this world too as the Kingdom of darkness by extension, might too be known as the Cosmos of Darkness...


 


...perhaps much more than we can ever fathom, waited upon the passion and victory of the Cross....  "For God so loved the World that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life..."


...God believes in His Son, the Angels believe in His Son,  Enoch believes in His Son, Moses(the mount of transfiguration) believes in His Son.....    "whosoever believes in His Son"


 


...perhaps this is why I some two weeks ago upon hearing a guy give Jhon 3:16 at a fellowship "rebuked" him... and felt bad afterwards at him presenting something to us "saints" that seemed too simple....  and I felt the Lord say that no one yet has ever really preached John 3:16 or even understood all the revelation tied up within it...


 


outside of the Christ....  everything perishes...


 


...I know, perhaps I may have went to far...  but... I don't know, maybe I didn't go far enough...

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2009 - 2:35PM #47
Anesis
Posts: 1,543

Jun 30, 2009 -- 9:15AM, Leight wrote:


....if Jesus had not been sucessful in His mission here on Earth, there would be no Heaven to expell anyone from....


 


...no Lamb on the throne... no opened scrolls, no reading of the book of life... no light there...  indeed  He, Himself,  as imperfection would be found still in Joseph of Aramatheas tomb......   if too in fact the World itself would have not dissolved upon His failure....    Satan would be upon the Throne and this world too as the Kingdom of darkness by extension, might too be known as the Cosmos of Darkness...


 


...perhaps much more than we can ever fathom, waited upon the passion and victory of the Cross....  "For God so loved the World that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life..."


...God believes in His Son, the Angels believe in His Son,  Enoch believes in His Son, Moses(the mount of transfiguration) believes in His Son.....    "whosoever believes in His Son"


 


...perhaps this is why I some two weeks ago upon hearing a guy give Jhon 3:16 at a fellowship "rebuked" him... and felt bad afterwards at him presenting something to us "saints" that seemed too simple....  and I felt the Lord say that no one yet has ever really preached John 3:16 or even understood all the revelation tied up within it...


 


outside of the Christ....  everything perishes...


 


...I know, perhaps I may have went to far...  but... I don't know, maybe I didn't go far enough...




Leight, this is amazing and vivid, and beautiful and frightening all at the same time. Are you an author? You use words to paint a Picasso!

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2009 - 11:29PM #48
Leight
Posts: 1,438

..... me, no I am no one, but just someone who is trying to forget the life that Jesus saved me from...    He who loves the unlovable and forsaken. for His own mysterious reasons... that's me...

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2009 - 12:36AM #49
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Leight, What has been touched upon is part of the Theodicy (the vindication of divine providence in view of the existence of evil). Our finite minds just do not have the capacity to comprehend all that the CREATOR GOD has accomplished nor the depths to which HE went to secure those Jewels(Mal.3:17, "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.").


Paul wrote: Rom.11:33, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"


True, Many read John 3:16 and take it superficially to mean an unconditional ticket to "eternal life". They refuse to look into what is entailed in those words "whosoever Believes" actually means. Among other things, the "Let this mind be in your which was in Christ Jesus". (Phil.2:5)


 


Jun 30, 2009 -- 9:15AM, Leight wrote:


 ...I know, perhaps I may have went to far...  but... I don't know, maybe I didn't go far enough...




Leight, I doubt that even with an "eternity" one will ever fully understand GOD. IMHO, I suspect that Lucifer felt that he understood GOD to the point of rebellion and the ambition of creating his own throne and subjects(1/3 of the angels and the "many on the broad way").


Our job isn't really to understand the "psychology of any", but to put aside that little sin which so easily besets us". Heb.12:1-----To die daily to self, and live daily as HE Directs our lives in LOVE for GOD and Neighbor.

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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