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Switch to Forum Live View ...the psychology of Moses.....
5 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2009 - 10:54AM #1
Leight
Posts: 1,438

....here's one I thought of 'springing' on my Sunday School class...  not as doctrine, but as a plausible explaination ....     and the reason is , for me at least, is the abrubt change in behavior of Moses in the text....   perhaps someone else has already thought of this... but it is new to me as it were...


      When God had Moses go through the three signs, the staff into the serpent, the hand into leprosy and the Nile water  poured unto the ground into blood, .... perhaps on some deep level, this reminded or met Moses in that moment when he slew the Egyptian with a stick and by his hand and shed  authoritative "water" he himself coming from the Nile even as a tearful babe, the Egyptian was a government official,  as blood, that is "Moses" means coming from the water and now, pouring blood... or being made blood or bloody...


....  the reason that this occurs to me is the strong reaction Moses has in now God enjoining him, Moses to complete the ministry of deliverance through "bloodshed"....   and so Moses perhaps grasping the whole mission in a way no one of us can understand, rightly said, No thanks...  "find somebody else"... ...been there, done that, had compassion, slew the Egyptian, buried him in the sand bloody....and am now a horror to myself with these sheep...

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2009 - 10:24PM #2
Thezman60
Posts: 2

A interesting thought, I believe that it may be mixed in the the over all plan of God to work in the life of Moses and the nation of the Isreal. From my study of the Bible I have have discovered that God works on many levels at the same time and this true in our daily lifes. Some times we see it and other time we don't.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2009 - 1:41AM #3
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Jun 9, 2009 -- 10:54AM, Leight wrote:


....here's one I thought of 'springing' on my Sunday School class...  not as doctrine, but as a plausible explaination ....     and the reason is , for me at least, is the abrubt change in behavior of Moses in the text....   perhaps someone else has already thought of this... but it is new to me as it were...



Leight, I apologize, but I'm not seeing the abrupt change you are referring to in you thoughts. And having a relationship to the "signs".


We have a few scanty detailed verses Ex.2;11-15; then 40 years passes before the episode of the "burning bush" and GOD telling Moses to return to Egypt and bring the Israelites out of Bondage and Egypt. Heb.11:23-29 adds some details. Apparently when Moses "went out unto his brethren, he had chosen the course of action to be a Israelite, but there wasn't the "unity" he expected.----as was evident in the attitutudes toward each other and him.  then upon being found out by Pharaoh and sought to be slain----Moses fled. During the next forty years Moses learned patience tending sheep.(As an aside: the land of Midian was the inhabited area by Abraham's son Midian born to Keturah.(after Sarah's death)----Also Reuel/Jethro was a priest) there is no record as to how much of Abraham's GOD or the linage and History of man and Creation was imparted to Moses by his father-in-law.


However, Ex.3:6 would indicate that Moses believed enough of what had been told to believe:"I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. "


I, too, believe that "All things" were at work in Moses life as they are in every believer's life who is called for a purpose.(Rom.8:28)  However, God gave those "signs" to Moses to reveal GOD'd Power to Pharaoh and his counselors----Not to condemn Moses for killing the Egyptian.   However, Yes, I believe that Moses got the Message that the release of the Israelites wouldn't come by any "POWER" of his.  At the "red sea", there was no power by Moses only the "Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord"...  There was no bloodiness in that chase which ended in the drowning of the pursuing Egyptians.  Nor could I see at any place where Moses was even symbolically poured out as blood.


Possibly you could give more details as to your enlightenment.___________---------Ok, If you are saying that Moses killing of the Egyptian lead to the "Exodus", I can see some association., but that also, had to be GOD's timing. AND that had to be in God's preparing MOSES for the task.  There is no indication of how the Egyptian was killed. A shepherd's staff would have been unlikely.


 


     

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2009 - 12:45PM #4
Anesis
Posts: 1,543

I think springing this on your Sunday School class will certainly create some discussion, especially if it's an adult class.


Here are a couple of other thoughts to consider....I think Moses had a strong reaction because the magnificence of his task might have been overwhelming to him. By that time, he probably had a relatively ordered life that was stable and predictable....and to go outside of that might have seemed out of his personality or if it was a revelation, it might have seemed too historically significant and huge for him to willingly choose that responsibility.


It could also be that the deliverance of Israel was also a prophecy - and he recognized it as such - of the deliverance of mankind from death.... the stick you talk about, representing either the cross itself or the spear pierced into his side, the hands that took the nails - pure, but "made impure" and then pure again when he rose again - and his blood was shed for our sake...and when he was pierced, there was only water.


I'm a little curious about the stick you are talking about, though....the Bible (NIV) doesn't mention that Moses killed the Egyptian with a stick....it just says he killed him, but doesn't say how.


Personally, if I had a revelation of that kind of deliverance and there was symbolic correlation of the deliverance out of Egypt that God was calling me to lead, I'd have a pretty strong reaction, too. But of course, I am only speculating as to what might have happened.


Sincerely makes a good point about the time lapse between leaving Egypt and then God's call to go back - Ex 2:23 doesn't specify a time, but says "Durng that long period..." Which could be only 10 or 20 years. Much could have happened during that time that we can only suppose. I'm also not sure that he chose to be an Israelite, though, because the Bible only says that he went out and watched them...it did not say he was working with them as a slave....he was only watching them. Even still, I'm not sure that part of the text is what you are referring to. After all, no matter how much time or what happened between incidents, the fact is that there may  be symbolism in it.....just as there may be symbolism between Israel's deliverance and our deliverance through Christ.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2009 - 12:54PM #5
Leight
Posts: 1,438

...Sincerely, you are quite right, the text is silent on many issues.... in fact I was thinking of it all, even as to its authorship (Moses, moved by the Spirit), wrote himself into his own story.... but beyond that is the aspect of Moses knowing that he had a calling of a deliverer, and expecting others ( the Slaves) to know as well,.... and then finally, he , Moses, was confronted by God with the calling, thusly even God knew, a calling, which he had then vacated..


...I guess what got my attention is that all the Signs given to Moses, the first three, had a healthy conotation, and a deadly conotation.....  staff  to serpent, hand to leprosy, water to blood,


     Moses association with the Midian Priest Jethro too may have some flavor of time associated with it too. Moses like Daniel may have known or heard of the Gods Word concerning the fact that his people would be held in slavery some 4OO years, as Daniel knew of the 7o years..Daniel by the Scriptures of that time, and Moses perhaps through the Oral tradition from Jethro.


From the "IVP  Bible Backround commentary Old Testament:  John H. Walton, Victor H. Matthew, and Mark W. Chavalas"  I got the following which I paraphrased and condensed:


   the Rod as Authority,  was a symbol that God was the ultimate authority even of Pharoah.


The Serpent, was what Pharoh wore on his crown. The leprosy, was a sign that God was going to punish Pharoah...and the water to blood, demonstrated Gods controll over the prosperity of Egypt..thus all the signs were aimed at Egypt.(page 80)


 


However Sincerely and others, I get the impression upon reading the commentary that it is on the type of schollarly level wherein those who write such commentaries assume a type of osmosis effect between the writers of Scripture and their surroundings.... you know, like the idea that Hell was a Persian import to the Scriptures...  and even Satan was a borrowed Zorasterian idea.


 


Sincerely, when you brought up the parts concerning the drowing of Pharoahs army...  that can be seen and not seen as water turned to blood.


 


 


Ultimately perhaps as the first poster on this thread (Thezman 60) said somewhat, we are wrapped in our calling from before we were born, and God speaks through it,that calling, that gift, in all our ways..... we know it, others should know it, and God Himself knows it...even as we too know the callings of others...  as we together, deliver, one another, from this place...


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2009 - 7:49PM #6
Leight
Posts: 1,438

...you are right Anesis, there is no mention of the stick in Scripture...  he could have used a rock, ...or one of the bricks...  but to use ones bare hands to kill is probably not easy, unless you strangle someone (heaven forbid!),  .... he may have used whatever weapon the Egyptian was carrying.... or a knife.... I suppose one would have to know how young princes dressed in those days too.... but yes your imagery of the cross there is seen too... 


....as I said earlier its all just "commentary".....  and too, the refection of his ministry, is maybe too something that was already present as I think "Sincerly" may be putting it, there was no moment of cartharthis....  maybe he was glad he had a family and a job, and was happy, and really did not to change anything, for something worse......  and too, maybe when he killed the Egyptian, there was a crack down on his people....I don't know, all just conjector...


 


.... but I do know it seems as if the call I have had on my life has been present all along, maybe not annointed, but present there non the less....  even the type evangelist whom God chose for me, has been the type of person that I even as a youth have reveranced....   she was of raw beauty and deep soul... the type of person who I have always loved...  and behaved around.... 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2009 - 12:28AM #7
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Leight, there are several things in your last two posts that I want to comment upon.  I had to do a little searching as I forgot about another rendering of the Story of Moses. Please look at Acts 7:20-44. Moses was 40 when left Egypt and 80 when He returned to lead the Israelites out of Egypt.  Abraham had been told by God that the Israelites would be slaves ,but would come out in the Fourth generation.(Gen.15:16)  (430years) 


Exodus 9:16, reveales that Pharaoh was brought to power for GOD to reveal that HE is the GOD of everything both to the Israelites and all the peoples of the world.  Can you understand that GOD warns all and it is only on the unbelieving/disobedient who receive that which was predicted?


Moses wasn't given any forewarning of his "calling"(to my knowledge) before announced at the "burning bush".


BTW, Daniel wasn't given to understand the "seventy years of captivity" until the first year of the reign of Darius the Mede. Dan.9:2


Leight Wrote:However Sincerely and others, I get the impression upon reading the commentary that it is on the type of schollarly level wherein those who write such commentaries assume a type of osmosis effect between the writers of Scripture and their surroundings.... you know, like the idea that Hell was a Persian import to the Scriptures...  and even Satan was a borrowed Zorasterian idea.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Leight, I suspect that it is that "Osmosis effect" by the writers of those "commentaries" which produce the "seeds" for the many "denominations". Teachings which have by "Osmosis" also included fallacies.  That is Why GOD said Isa. 8:20, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."


Leight Wrote: Ultimately perhaps as the first poster on this thread (Thezman 60) said somewhat, we are wrapped in our calling from before we were born, and God speaks through it,that calling, that gift, in all our ways..... we know it, others should know it, and God Himself knows it...even as we too know the callings of others...  as we together, deliver, one another, from this place...<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


We are called to be Sons and Daughters of the Living Creator GOD. And HE CAN USE EACH AS WE ALLOW----- to be a Daniel or Moses OR------a Pharaoh or Judas.


Paul truly understood the meaning of that which he wrote in Rom.8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. "  Notice what he writes in Phil. 4:11-13, "Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, [therewith] to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."  Check out this list of  those "states" in which he had been: 2Cor. 11:23-28.


 

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2009 - 11:29AM #8
Leight
Posts: 1,438

...Sincerely, the precision of your writing is impecable.....  it is true that Moses was not given any warning as to his calling from the buring bush, .... what I was referring to was Moses, actions as a deliver vis a vis the killing of the Egyptian, and of how he , Moses at the next encounter of seeing two Hebrews fighting, assumed that they knew that he, Moses was called to help them, and of how he spoke reconcilliation among them, telling them that they were brothers..... and of how the agressor in the fray, said to him "who made you a judge over us... are you going to do us as you did the Egyptian? (all paraphrased of course)....  in this encounter ( i think) one can see indeed Moses "call" and even the course of the ministry, that is, Moses as deliver of ungrateful, quarreling people who made a appeal to Egypt (who made you a judge/deliver/lawgiver over us) ....indeed the rejection of Moses came from his sister, Miriam and Aaron as well as Aarons' sons,...  and lastly even from Moses himself when he failed to santify the Lord in the presence of the people... because they had tried and angered him, Moses...   imagine helping some Slaves and then being "squeeled " on by them, and then running to the desert for saftey, and then later hearing an Absoulute and Ampliefied Call to go and deliver the same people and then hearing an Absolute and Amplified Call to go upon a mountain to die because of the sins/stress of these same people.....people who again had "appealed" to Egypt, in many ways and desires...


   So Sincerely you are correct, if one uses a postive type of analysis of the text, that is if one strictly sticks to what is written, .... commentary goes to patterns, types and shadows ( in my humble opion) and must always yeild to what is written, unless of course, what is written amplifies what is written......such as the disposal of athe Egyptian in the sand, may prefigure, the Spirits burying of the Egyptians in the sand.... that is when some of the horses and chariots and soldiers may have washed up on shore and became covered in sand.......that is why I have conjectored that the call of Moses was being accutated all his life, ...even in the desert, caring for sheep, till the day, he would care for Gods flock...  much as Davids' preparation was with sheep and bears and lions and even Goliath, until he too should assume God's mantel of shepard over Israel...


 


it is interesting to trace how God works with us in our pre-salvation days, which to me are not quite that, for "those whom He foreknew, He predestined .."


 


...and yes you are correct in that it is darkness which "seems" to fracture the light, and give rise to various denominations.... when those who do not rightly divide the Word of God, handle Scripture, being unsaved, and even, those saved.....  and yes the account in Acts of Steven recounting the life of Moses, is a great part of our Scripture homework this week...


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2009 - 6:02PM #9
Leight
Posts: 1,438

....when we are really confronted with our Calling, that which we have trained for all our lives, indeed, that which we have been shaped for...  will we really want IT.....  I write IT, as our calling is indistinguishable from God...... do you really want your calling?....your Cross... as implied by Moses, and as commanded by Lord?

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2009 - 6:31PM #10
dsfin
Posts: 794

Another reflection on Moses is he didn't make it into the Promised Land. See Deuteronomy 1:37  We must endur until the end or our reward will be lost.

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