The ancient Jews understood that all go to Sheol (realm of the dead, gravedom, ect.) whether one was righteous or not, so if Christ is telling these Jews He will give them eternal life, what else would the first Christians have understood it as?
A new body is given at the Resurrection. Think of Christ's Transfiguration, that is what will happen to all. Another way of saying it is, The body and soul is a union between the two. Adam was not complete until he had the breath of life for example. The body is not neccessarily evil, just of a fallen nature."Man, with respect to his nature, is most truly said to be neither soul without body, nor, on the other hand, body without soul; but is composed of the union of body and soul into one form of the beautiful." (St. Methodios of Olympus died 311 AD). Why would St. Paul say; "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."(Rom 6:23) if he wasn't referring to a literal death? "When the first man foolishly preferred the deceit suggested by the devil who wished to destroy him, his body became not only mortal, but subject to passions as well, for many faults blossomed forth, and the body became as a heavy and disobedient horse." St. Iranaeus-202 AD. This idea that it is only a spiritual death is a pagan idea and is derived from Platonic philosophy. When St. Paul is telling the Corinthians that they are to be given a 'spiritual body' he is likening it to the 'last Adam' who was the resurrected Christ. or refer to the verse "There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another." (Cor 15:40). Ezekial is refering to our accountability before God. Saying the Heavenly body is only spiritual (as in the soul by itself) and not bodily is in opposition to Christian teaching for over 2,000 years.
From Lope: "If a loving Creator exists, I am not responsible for anyone's sin but mine. The Bible clearly teaches that in Ezekiel 18. The concept of original sin is a man made idea. Sin was not introduced to me by Adam, but it was created for me when I created it. Spiritual death was the consequence of Adams sin for Adam and it was the consequence of my sin for me. Jesus taught very clearly that if I am to have any hope of eternal life I must obey the command to love. If I am able to kill my spiritual existence with my own sin, that means I was spiritually alive before I killed it. I, like Adam was in the garden with God and I like Adam was through out of that relationship because of my own sin. Adam and I both have the ability to turn from wickedness to righteousness and if we do we shall live and not die."
I agree you are not responsible for anyone's sin but your own. What I was saying was that we have inherited a fallen nature from Adam and Eve. i did not mean it in the Roman Catholic sort of way. I disagree, as A&E fell, so did the world. Pain, suffering, disease, sinful nature, separation from God, and death all were a consequence of the fall. It was not only a spiritual fall but a physical fall as well. My other point of disagreement is this use of the term 'spiritual existence'. We are entities of body and soul. God made them go together and their separation is unnatural. I get this impression that you believe soul is better than the body, or that the lofty spirituality is in your soul, whereas from the day 1 the Christians did not believe this, this is an idea borrowed from Plato. We can clearly read fro mthe frist Christian writings, thiswas not the case.
To Whisper01
No one forced them to reject communion with God, thus if there is anyone to blame theologically speaking it was their fault.
True, from a certain point of perspective. But from another God did in fact engineer the whole thing using infinate knowledge upon 2 small simple creations that knew hardly anything.
Force? How about engineer the whole thing like a "play" where every influence and every input of information leads one soley to thier destiny, like eating fruit, talking snakes, child like stupidity of A&E, a forbidden fruit tree planted dead center in thier world (Eden), etc... etc...
A&E where at fault, but thier fault was a "Learning Curve", one has to be wrong at time to understnd the full depth and width of "right". God on the other hand does not, he already knows. So in point of logic we need to be wrong and do wrong to learn right, its a never ending lesson. One is not "right" by doing "wrong", one hopefully learns from it though...
I disagree with the first paragraph more than anything. God was not culpible. Baically there was a hot stove and Hetold the two children not to touch it, because in his infinite knowledge, He knew the conseqences, but t he children did n ot and burned their hands. Tehy willingly disobeyed God who was trying to help them. If they wanted to fully understand rigth and wrong they should've relied on God. Their purpose of Parise was to continue to became morel like God, a process called Sanctification. Hence being the image and likeness of God as well as St. Paul's command to 'put on Christ.'
The arguement that God made a world of 'natural evils' and that He is ultimately responsible, or He doesn't exist, is an attack on Roman Catholic dogma
I agree in theory. God did not make a bunch of Evils in the world, but then if this is so then whom did? Humans? Human kind created evil where God did not? Satan? Angles can create things beyond Gods will? Who gave them this power? How can they do what they where not created to do? If one is created one then if finite. If one is finite and one is created then one has abilities that one can do and one has abilities one can not do. Its simple construction. Whom gave these people whom created evil the knowledge and power to do so?
God created all things, or so the story goes (of which I personally believe). If so then he gave us all the powers and knowlege we will ever ever have. He has also completely influenced us by placing us in a world of his creation where everything works (the weather for example) how he dictated it to work. Within this world where we see what he allows us to see, hear what he allows us to hear, and think about things that he has allowed us to think of he places us and says "Ok, off ya go. Learn".
The Bible clearly states that He is God of light and darkness, good and evil, He has power over them both, but most of all He is a loving and compassionate God, so He allows His creations the free-will to reject Him and the divine order of things as it were, but we are responsible for the consequences. Like i said if we touch the burning stove even though He said not to, we wll burn. Just because the government gave me a driver's license doesn't mean its the government's fault if I misuse it.
It's not evil, its a process.
While our Sanctification may be a process that our commiting evil may be a step towards, it is cetrtainly called evil.
Also how do you 'agree in theory?' :)
The Old Testament says our body returns to dust and our spirit returns to God. It is not the body that dies and is born again, it is the spirit--our spiritual existence. I do not believe in an evil God. I believe in a loving Creator that is good all the time. He is not in my opinon mostly loving and compassionate. He is never unloving and never without compassion. Going back to the Geneisis account. God said in the day they ate they would die. I believe that is what happened. They died spiritually when they sinned as do we. They did not die physically. Paul said it is not our natural body that will be with God, but our spiritual body. Ezekiel 18 is talking about spiritual death when it says I can kill my own soul with my own sin. I know that because after I have killing my soul according to Ezekiel I have the ability to turn from wickedness to righteousness and live and not die. I could not turn from wickedness to righteousness, if I had killed my body or physical self with my sin.
From Lope: "If a loving Creator exists, I am not responsible for anyone's sin but mine. The Bible clearly teaches that in Ezekiel 18. The concept of original sin is a man made idea. Sin was not introduced to me by Adam, but it was created for me when I created it. Spiritual death was the consequence of Adams sin for Adam and it was the consequence of my sin for me. Jesus taught very clearly that if I am to have any hope of eternal life I must obey the command to love. If I am able to kill my spiritual existence with my own sin, that means I was spiritually alive before I killed it. I, like Adam was in the garden with God and I like Adam was through out of that relationship because of my own sin. Adam and I both have the ability to turn from wickedness to righteousness and if we do we shall live and not die."
I agree you are not responsible for anyone's sin but your own. What I was saying was that we have inherited a fallen nature from Adam and Eve. i did not mean it in the Roman Catholic sort of way. I disagree, as A&E fell, so did the world. Pain, suffering, disease, sinful nature, separation from God, and death all were a consequence of the fall. It was not only a spiritual fall but a physical fall as well. My other point of disagreement is this use of the term 'spiritual existence'. We are entities of body and soul. God made them go together and their separation is unnatural. I get this impression that you believe soul is better than the body, or that the lofty spirituality is in your soul, whereas from the day 1 the Christians did not believe this, this is an idea borrowed from Plato. We can clearly read fro mthe frist Christian writings, thiswas not the case.
To Whisper01
No one forced them to reject communion with God, thus if there is anyone to blame theologically speaking it was their fault.
True, from a certain point of perspective. But from another God did in fact engineer the whole thing using infinate knowledge upon 2 small simple creations that knew hardly anything.
Force? How about engineer the whole thing like a "play" where every influence and every input of information leads one soley to thier destiny, like eating fruit, talking snakes, child like stupidity of A&E, a forbidden fruit tree planted dead center in thier world (Eden), etc... etc...
A&E where at fault, but thier fault was a "Learning Curve", one has to be wrong at time to understnd the full depth and width of "right". God on the other hand does not, he already knows. So in point of logic we need to be wrong and do wrong to learn right, its a never ending lesson. One is not "right" by doing "wrong", one hopefully learns from it though...
I disagree with the first paragraph more than anything. God was not culpible. Baically there was a hot stove and Hetold the two children not to touch it, because in his infinite knowledge, He knew the conseqences, but t he children did n ot and burned their hands. Tehy willingly disobeyed God who was trying to help them. If they wanted to fully understand rigth and wrong they should've relied on God. Their purpose of Parise was to continue to became morel like God, a process called Sanctification. Hence being the image and likeness of God as well as St. Paul's command to 'put on Christ.'
The arguement that God made a world of 'natural evils' and that He is ultimately responsible, or He doesn't exist, is an attack on Roman Catholic dogma
I agree in theory. God did not make a bunch of Evils in the world, but then if this is so then whom did? Humans? Human kind created evil where God did not? Satan? Angles can create things beyond Gods will? Who gave them this power? How can they do what they where not created to do? If one is created one then if finite. If one is finite and one is created then one has abilities that one can do and one has abilities one can not do. Its simple construction. Whom gave these people whom created evil the knowledge and power to do so?
God created all things, or so the story goes (of which I personally believe). If so then he gave us all the powers and knowlege we will ever ever have. He has also completely influenced us by placing us in a world of his creation where everything works (the weather for example) how he dictated it to work. Within this world where we see what he allows us to see, hear what he allows us to hear, and think about things that he has allowed us to think of he places us and says "Ok, off ya go. Learn".
The Bible clearly states that He is God of light and darkness, good and evil, He has power over them both, but most of all He is a loving and compassionate God, so He allows His creations the free-will to reject Him and the divine order of things as it were, but we are responsible for the consequences. Like i said if we touch the burning stove even though He said not to, we wll burn. Just because the government gave me a driver's license doesn't mean its the government's fault if I misuse it.
It's not evil, its a process.
While our Sanctification may be a process that our commiting evil may be a step towards, it is cetrtainly called evil.
No one forced them to reject communion with God, thus if there is anyone to blame theologically speaking it was their fault.
True, from a certain point of perspective. But from another God did in fact engineer the whole thing using infinate knowledge upon 2 small simple creations that knew hardly anything.
Force? How about engineer the whole thing like a "play" where every influence and every input of information leads one soley to thier destiny, like eating fruit, talking snakes, child like stupidity of A&E, a forbidden fruit tree planted dead center in thier world (Eden), etc... etc...
A&E where at fault, but thier fault was a "Learning Curve", one has to be wrong at time to understnd the full depth and width of "right". God on the other hand does not, he already knows. So in point of logic we need to be wrong and do wrong to learn right, its a never ending lesson. One is not "right" by doing "wrong", one hopefully learns from it though...
The arguement that God made a world of 'natural evils' and that He is ultimately responsible, or He doesn't exist, is an attack on Roman Catholic dogma
I agree in theory. God did not make a bunch of Evils in the world, but then if this is so then whom did? Humans? Human kind created evil where God did not? Satan? Angles can create things beyond Gods will? Who gave them this power? How can they do what they where not created to do? If one is created one then if finite. If one is finite and one is created then one has abilities that one can do and one has abilities one can not do. Its simple construction. Whom gave these people whom created evil the knowledge and power to do so?
God created all things, or so the story goes (of which I personally believe). If so then he gave us all the powers and knowlege we will ever ever have. He has also completely influenced us by placing us in a world of his creation where everything works (the weather for example) how he dictated it to work. Within this world where we see what he allows us to see, hear what he allows us to hear, and think about things that he has allowed us to think of he places us and says "Ok, off ya go. Learn".
We shouldn't try to rationalize what is irrational at heart. If one wants to be purely theological, it was man and woman in paradise who fell from grace, thus through sin, death was introduced to the whole world. No one forced them to reject communion with God, thus if there is anyone to blame theologically speaking it was their fault.
The arguement that God made a world of 'natural evils' and that He is ultimately responsible, or He doesn't exist, is an attack on Roman Catholic dogma as they tried to synthesize original Chrisitan theology with pagan philosophy. It is not what Christ taught by any means.
If a loving Creator exists, I am not responsible for anyone's sin but mine. The Bible clearly teaches that in Ezekiel 18. The concept of original sin is a man made idea. Sin was not introduced to me by Adam, but it was created for me when I created it. Spiritual death was the consequence of Adams sin for Adam and it was the consequence of my sin for me. Jesus taught very clearly that if I am to have any hope of eternal life I must obey the command to love. If I am able to kill my spiritual existence with my own sin, that means I was spiritually alive before I killed it. I, like Adam was in the garden with God and I like Adam was through out of that relationship because of my own sin. Adam and I both have the ability to turn from wickedness to righteousness and if we do we shall live and not die.
The arguement that God made a world of 'natural evils' and that He is ultimately responsible, or He doesn't exist, is an attack on Roman Catholic dogma as they tried to synthesize original Chrisitan theology with pagan philosophy. It is not what Christ taught by any means.
Ah. The Swine Flu is the Catholics fault!! I knew it!!!
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Marx
We shouldn't try to rationalize what is irrational at heart. If one wants to be purely theological, it was man and woman in paradise who fell from grace, thus through sin, death was introduced to the whole world. No one forced them to reject communion with God, thus if there is anyone to blame theologically speaking it was their fault.
The arguement that God made a world of 'natural evils' and that He is ultimately responsible, or He doesn't exist, is an attack on Roman Catholic dogma as they tried to synthesize original Chrisitan theology with pagan philosophy. It is not what Christ taught by any means.
I for one would definatly blame God for this one, whether natural or man made.
If it's natural God made nature and being ALL Knowing knew exactly when this flu would break out before he ever carted in the dirt to make this planet.
If it's man made God made man and being ALL Knowing knew exactly when man would concoct this little problem before he ever carted in dirt to make this planet.
God seems to be the single common denominator in all issues, including this one.
But, and here is the kicker, if God is the common denominator it no longer becomes the question "Did God do this?", but should rather be turned to "What did we do here on Earth to precipitate this and what shall we do to solve it?" as it is obvious God is involved in all things in all ways.
For honestly, God is not the one learning with every mistake that is made, that would be us. We learn from mistakes and overcome the obsticles, God only supplies both the obsticle and the wisdom to overcome it.
Just another take on the old querry "It is our fault or did God do it?".
:-) John
If it is unloving actions to others, it is our fault and God did not do it. You may have a point on God having set up the world in which viruses occur and I don't have the answer for that, but that should be balanced a bit with the fact that the world is also set up in such a beautify and wonderful place--occasionally. We enjoy the pleasures--we have to endure the pain, seems to be the way things are. I certainly do not believe God is causing this virus or any disease to punish man for something we have done or failed to do. It is also obvious that in a world in which viruses exist and suffering exists, we are provided with opportunity to show love to others in helping as best we can to alieve the suffering. When we do that we create righteousness, a righteousness that may have eternal value existing long after the virus is history.
I for one would definatly blame God for this one, whether natural or man made.
If it's natural God made nature and being ALL Knowing knew exactly when this flu would break out before he ever carted in the dirt to make this planet.
If it's man made God made man and being ALL Knowing knew exactly when man would concoct this little problem before he ever carted in dirt to make this planet.
God seems to be the single common denominator in all issues, including this one.
But, and here is the kicker, if God is the common denominator it no longer becomes the question "Did God do this?", but should rather be turned to "What did we do here on Earth to precipitate this and what shall we do to solve it?" as it is obvious God is involved in all things in all ways.
For honestly, God is not the one learning with every mistake that is made, that would be us. We learn from mistakes and overcome the obsticles, God only supplies both the obsticle and the wisdom to overcome it.
Just another take on the old querry "It is our fault or did God do it?".
