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Switch to Forum Live View Can of Worms! (tough issues in CC)
6 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2008 - 6:47PM #31
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Marty, you say "Conform our hearts to Christ and we will all be one! "
I totally agree.
It reminds me though of those who say "we must love God", I agree with that too, but how do we love God? What does God require?

The answer I believe to this is simple and practical.
We give him our heart, mind and soul. We show that love to others in real and practical ways.

God consistently says that our love for Him requires our obedience to His Commands.
For example, take the Ten Commandments, the first four relate to and demonstrate how we can love God, the last six relate to and demonstrate how we can love our neighbors.
Jesus says that we become one in Him by becoming His Children (born again),  and our response is to obey Him ("If you love Me, keep my commandments").

It follows that those who refuse to obey God cut themselves off from the family of God, they create disunity. (romans 11)

This may sound "Roman" but to contradict this most basic of all teaching is to disregard the instruction of the Lord.

So what I am saying is that to conform our hearts to Christ is to obey Him which is to love Him, then we will love others when we know His love.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2008 - 7:14PM #32
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Hey Graham,

Good Morning to you!

You are really on target with all that you assert about our response to God's love.  To me, its not because of the legalism of 'obeying' Scriptures, its a natural response when you encounter the 'Lover of your Soul'!  I don't think there is anyone who can walk away from Him once they've truly encountered Him.

I think one of the major differences between the two missions was a matter of 'preaching the word' vs. 'living the word'.  To encounter Christ in someone says so much more than just hearing about Him and His Love from the pulpit.

Let me push your thinking a little further though.  " those who refuse to obey God cut themselves off from the family of God"  The real harm in disobedience is to cut ourselves off from the Source of identity!  Our 'real self' comes alive only as we allow Christ to rise within us!  That's what we were designed for.. that's who we are!  So really, disobedience damages US and keeps us from being our true self.

Thanks again for you posts here.... always a pleasure to chat with you...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2008 - 8:48PM #33
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Yes Marty, you put that very well. God is love and His commandments are given becasue He loves us and wishes us no self harm (which we are very good at doing).

I love His laws and the beauty of them, but am saddened by the way they are used to judge, condemn and control.

You know I have bought all the book you have recommended, now it's you turn :)
I have recommended the book, the Celtic Way of Evangelism, this is a fantastic work that brings the relevance of CC to us today, here and now.

If you wish a copy I have a spare, brand new, in my left hand now and will happily send it to you (no cost). Just email me you address if you fancy reading it. tassiecelt@mac.com
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2008 - 9:19PM #34
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Hey Graham,

If your 'The Celtic Way of Evangelism' is by George G. Hunter, then I read that a few years back.  Yes!  I consider it one of the foundational books for CC.  I usually recommend it after someone has finished Newell's 'Listening to the Heartbeat of God'.  Thanks for the offer though, much appreciated.

Actually, I think I remember setting up a thread either here or on CCS which lists recommended readings.  I'll check later for it.  There are quite a few really good books out on CC that help free those called to the Celtic Way to put aside the Roman type of theology.  However, I've met plenty of people who have read everything yet still can't make that transition!

Have you gotten your copy of 'The Shack' yet?  I think you'll see more of what I've been saying about  'relationship' when you've finished that one...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2008 - 8:28AM #35
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Yes Marty, I do refer to George Hunters book, sorry I thought you said you'd not heard of it. that's fine then.
Re the shack...you're kidding!! I've got the other four books to get through, I'm a terrible reader.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2008 - 8:42AM #36
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Hey Graham,

I know the other books are good and essential reads but 'The Shack' will really help you more!  It reveals the heart of God!  In it you'll see the intimacy that the Celts had for Him and discover the reason for their passion.  Even though it is a novel, the truth of it makes so much (even scriptures) clearer than I can explain to you here!  Besides, the story is so engrossing that you'll be through it in no time...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 12, 2008 - 10:57PM #37
seekerdrd
Posts: 98
Wow. Go away for a bit and you come back to all sorts of fun stuff.

Phantasm--if I understand your question correctly, the dilemna you are seeing is one of potential ecumenical difficulty and its possible ramifications, no? And if so, then how do we CCers deal with this, correct?

Marty--if I understand your response, you would say that a CCer would make sure that the essential story of Christ was shared (i.e. Christ is God/man, dies for our redemption, and rises again for our eternal victory), and that this would be done less through a turning to any particular canon, but rather shared orally in response to queries about why someone were living in a Christ-like manner, correct?

If so, this reminds me of a saying attributed to the Buddha when some of his disciples were squabbling over right practice, theology, etc. I cannot remember the exact phrasing, but essentially he said "Why do you keep looking at my finger when I am trying to show you the moon."

Probably, the answer to your question, Phantasm, will be as varied from CCer to CCer as there are variations of CC practice. I would say that for myself, I look to the early Celtic missionaries and to Jesus for my take on handling this issue. From what we can tell, the early Celtic missionaries would tailor their message to the people they were trying to reach, and from that example, one could infer that each canon or culture should be dealt with and appreciated within its own context. I think Jesus speaks to this indirectly when his disciples come to him complaining about some who were preaching Jesus without his authority and doing so for profit. Jesus's response was basically, "So what! The message getting preached is what truly matters. If the word is getting out, let God judge those delivering it."

Ultimately it is the heart's response, and not the canon that matters. Even Paul speaks to this some when he says that some are saying they're from Paul, others from Apollos, but that is utter nonsense since we really should be using Christ as our head, or to say it in a more Celtic manner (lol) "Christ is my druid."

Now as to Revalation, I personally view it as va book of exhortation, a reminder that in the end, God reigns victorious, and we as well if we follow Christ.

Has this long-winded thing helped anyone?

David
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2008 - 9:03AM #38
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Well I ordered the Shack Marty, another book to get through...still, easy reading will be nice.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2008 - 9:17AM #39
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Marty, another thought regarding what we discussed about the tolerance of sodomites on Iona...

As I said, and we agreed, homosexuals deserve Gods love and our gentle words to lead them to the light, no differently to any other people who have gone astray.
However, Jesus had a special rebuke for the Pharisee leaders who were deceiving the people. He said "now that you say you see, your sin remains.."
I know you have views on the word "sin", but that's the faithfully recorded words of Jesus.
The Pharisees were claiming to be spiritual leaders, they believed they were the "seers", therefore judgment fell harder on them.
Paul confirmed this when he said that those who were teachers would be judged more strictly.

Some of the homosexuals, bisexuals and transvestites on Iona are deemed as "staff", they are therefore in leadership roles.
They say they see... and so I see a difference in how they are viewed by God, and therefore His people.

I'm very happy that the Iona Community does not (at least to me) represent a faithful witness and example of the Celtic Mission we speak of.
That really would be discouraging.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 13, 2008 - 10:05AM #40
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

David - great to hear from you again!  I hope all is well?  Please let me know privately if there is anything we can uplift in prayer together.  You may not always be 'here' but I see you are still in touch!  Thanks for the perspectives in your response.

Perhaps my approach to Celtic Evangelism could be summed up this by an admonishment from St. Francis, "PREACH THE GOSPEL, use words if necessary"!  How we treat a person speaks more of our beliefs than the words we use to explain ourselves.  Or, the simpler adage, 'Actions speak louder than words'.

Another problem for us I see is that the Celts loved the Word of God but it wasn't as defined with them as it is with modern Christians.  They had other books that they appreciated and used to teach with as well!  In addition, they wrote their own books and used them!  Words were important to change your own life, living by them was how you preached!

Graham - 'harmatia' (sin) is not my interpretation or opinion, its the Greek!  If we claim to live by the Word of God, we should use its original intention rather than modern interpretation.  Rather than the 'corruption' applied to it today to reinforce the Roman view of mankind's degradation, it simply implies our inability to 'hit the mark' without His help, our 'failings'.  That's just our humanity!  We can't purge ourselves of our humanity!  But in Harmony with Him, our humanity becomes empowered (dunamis) by His presence.  That is what eliminates our 'sin'.. our failings!

Now, about Iona, what I didn't get time to tell you last evening was that I don't agree with the statement at Iona but I understand the position they took in light of Celtic perspectives.  Here's more readings for you but you don't have to buy another book!  All of the Celtic Saints who started a monastery wrote or used manuals for the proper order of the monastery.  In them, they clearly state the position against brothers copulating with the novitiates!  They were quite sever in their punishment of it!  Why Iona went in this direction, I don't really know or understand!  For me, the focus is not what others say or do, its how God's word commands me to conform to His Spirit and His Word.  I see God's Word as applying to me personally.  I'm not supposed to use it to tell others how THEY should live.  I'm supposed to be the example (icon) to them of Him in my life.  The rest is between them and their Source!  CC is not about conformity to what I think the Bible tells me to do!  Its a message on how and why I should die to everything I think in my own mind and conform myself to His design for me!

Thanks again to both you guys, this is getting interesting...

Slan,
Marty
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