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Switch to Forum Live View Can of Worms! (tough issues in CC)
9 years ago  ::  Jul 23, 2008 - 12:14PM #21
mfjfarrell
Posts: 237
Hey Graham,

Nice to hear you're still plodding along as the Spirit leads!  I'm a slow reader (maybe dim witted?) as well!  Just hang on and let the Great Teacher keep speaking as you read.

As for Newell's 'Book of Creation', I went to page 21 but disagree with your conclusions.  The previous section was dealing with the cultural influences that were intrinsic to Celtic worship, such as our penchant for worshiping outside, our Church without Walls.  At the top of 21, here's what I see as similar to your concerns.

"It was typical of the Celtic Church to see its worship of Christ as building on the truths and symbols of the mysticism that preceded Christianity in Britain.  Aspects of its ancient mythology and nature religion were the equivalent of an Old Testament for the Celtic mission.  Christ was the fulfillment of all that was true, whether that was the priestly and prophetic traditions of Judaism or of its own Celtic druidical past.

From your posting, I get the impression that you consider the druids little more than 'black arts witches'.  Actually, they held much higher positions in Celtic society!  They were the lawyers, the physicians, the musicians and sages and not the workers of black arts that many choose to portray them as!  There are even stories how one of the druids was told in a dream of the coming of the master Druid.  Remember Columba's "Christ is my druid" comment?

Anyway, the Celts took what they knew about Creation, Nature and Mankind, and brought it into their understandings of the 'Good News'!  They appreciated Creation as before and still sought to see the Source of Life in all!  Christ replaced their ignorance and became the center of all they knew and loved...  Hope that helps a bit!

Slan,
Marty
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2008 - 4:49PM #22
akas58
Posts: 355
Wow, I just stumbled across this and it's very interesting.  Could it be that Christ is in truth the fulfillment of all the world's religions which seek the true God?  OK, the accounts we have relate to a man Jesus in the context of an occupied Palestine, but if we consider how Jesus teated HIS particular background, surely we can imagine how he would treat any background, whether it be Judaism, Paganism, Hinduism etc etc.
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2008 - 4:49PM #23
akas58
Posts: 355
Wow, I just stumbled across this and it's very interesting.  Could it be that Christ is in truth the fulfillment of all the world's religions which seek the true God?  OK, the accounts we have relate to a man Jesus in the context of an occupied Palestine, but if we consider how Jesus teated HIS particular background, surely we can imagine how he would treat any background, whether it be Judaism, Paganism, Hinduism etc etc.
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2008 - 3:46PM #24
Phantasm
Posts: 767
So farrell, you find discussions about cannon secondary?  Hmm.  That's possible.  People can get hung up on the 'words' of scripture rather than focus on the eternal Logos of God.

But if Celtic Christians are as much a part of the church as any Protestant or Eastern church, the goings-on of the wider church IS in our/your interest.  Understanding, I'd argue, is the lynchpin of most of the virtues and goodness in mankind.  Vast swaths of people in the church underestimate the differences between geographically disparate groups of Christians, most are totally unaware that there's a book the Ethiopians accept called the Sheperd of Hermas.  Some might find that disturbing if they're overseas and borrowing someone else's Bible for a moment, or hear about it for the first time in visiting a church.  When ignorance is unexpectedly confronted with knowledge, explosive situations can develop.

Christian Education is definitely in everyone's interests.

Excuse me for the leangthy post, but I just feel that accurate information is better than a lack of knowledge.  We can still identify with other groups of Christians if we talk about this stuff in the church, to at least try to promote understanding in American churches.  That's how I see it.
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 29, 2008 - 4:14PM #25
mfjfarrell
Posts: 237
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings Phantasm,

Usually my friends call me Marty.  Its how I sign all my responses.

I don't believe that I ever said that canon is secondary, not even sure what it would be secondary too!  What I did say was that, in the Early Church, there were many 'christian' books being passed around so, a canon had to be devised to help clarify what the Christian message was!  I'm familiar with the 'Shepherd of Hermas', its a bit boring and pedantic but was quite popular in its time.  I wouldn't be upset at all to find it in a culturally diverse version of the Bible.

As for, "People can get hung up on the 'words' of scripture rather than focus on the eternal Logos of God.
"
, I'll go you one better, I've met many Christians who worship the Book rather than live by the message within!  Again I'll pose to you, is our primary purpose in this existence, to foster understanding? or to serve Him however He leads us?  Many a time I've had to pull in all my arguments to 'enlighten' those who 'misunderstood' the message because I realized, they just weren't capable!  Understanding is great but its the work of the Holy Spirit!  I'm (we're) called to serve!

Education comes with willingness to learn, Christian or otherwise.  If the mind is closed, the effort is vain to bring light.  It is simply better to BE the Light in other's midst!  That's what the Church of today needs most!  Its just a totally different approach to sharing the Good News than we are accustomed to.  Its not beyond the Church to continue bumping around in the darkness claiming to have found the light switch!  Sadly, it happens all to often!  But I do appreciate your energy and enthusiasm in your posts.  May God continue to use it for His purposes...

Slan,
Marty
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2008 - 11:24PM #26
Phantasm
Posts: 767
Hello, Marty.

Okay, I'll admit I was reading a little much into your post.  We do seem to have a disagreement about what the Church is supposed to be about.  And I'm cool with that, disagreements stimulate the mind better than agreement.  I am a very mental person, I think a lot (sometimes too much, to my detriment).  I see understanding as more than just a mental process, rather, it's also a way of entering into the other, of expanding your existance, learning about the universe and the people around us.  And the Church has a role in that, from my perspective.

You just helped me understand you better.  Hey, that's pretty cool!  I totally understand your concept of "BE the light."  Believe me, I try.  I think I have a lot of Roman in me, trying to actively promote something.  We just have radically different styles of being Christian, it seems.

Also, part of the problem here I think is that I'm talking about the internal workings of the Church while you're talking about the wider world.  I'll be the first to concede that the line between the Church and the world is very much more blurry than some (esp. fundamentalists) would have us believe.....

So you're changing the question from "How do we promote understanding?" to "How do we become light?"  Is that right?

Are we on the same page yet?  ;)


(geez, these posts keep getting longer and longer.....)
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2008 - 7:41AM #27
mfjfarrell
Posts: 237
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Phantasm,

Thanks for your response!  Were we disagreeing?  Maybe I'll disagree with that!

As for being the Light, yes, you've got it!  That's what Early Christianity was about!  BE Christ to all you meet so that they may come into Harmony with the Creator of their very Soul!  That concept blended very well with the Celtic mindset of Harmony with Creation.

I think you are also correct in realizing that CC, as an institution, died out and was absorbed into the Early Roman Church.  However, Celtic Spirituality remained in the hearts and minds of the Celtic peoples even to this day!  Christ is calling us back to a way of life, a way of spirituality, that He intended to be part of the Good News.  We cannot rebuild the Celtic Church, if ever there was one, and its not what the world needs, we're too fragmented now as it is!  What we do offer, though, is a way to be in Harmony with yourself, your Creator and the rest of Creation!  Rather than focusing on structure, we rebuild ourselves in the image of the man/woman He created us to BE.  His Image!

Where you would look to 'understanding', a meeting of the minds, we would look to 'harmony', a meeting of the hearts.  The Romans converted their followers with words in the cities.  The Celts used works and actions first and then explained why to those they met in the countryside, pagaini. (1 Peter 3:15)  So, therein is the source of our 'disagreement'!  Christianity was never supposed to be about structure!  Its about a living relationship with the Source of all Life.  So... understanding as the source of unity?  That's very Roman!  Conform our hearts to Christ and we will all be one!  Regardless of our pasts and traditions and anything else that hinders us today, we must BE Him!

"So you're changing the question from "How do we promote understanding?" to "How do we become light?" Is that right?"  Right! and the answer is simple... death of the 'self'!  Next question...

Slan,
Marty
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9 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2008 - 12:42AM #28
Phantasm
Posts: 767
Maybe the 'Romans' and the 'Celts' of the world are meant to balance each other, to pull each other to the center of the faith in a kind of reverse tug-of-war.  Focus on the countryside and you never reach huge numbers of people, focus on the city and you lose the sense of wonder that God and nature instill in us.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........................
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9 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2008 - 11:47AM #29
mfjfarrell
Posts: 237
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings Phantasm,

Can there be balance between opposing perspectives of humanity?  Is that not like living in the 'gray' instead of the Light?  When gnosticism entered into the Western Church (Rome) it set itself apart from the rest of Christianity.  The East still holds that mankind is created in the image of God, just like the Celts.  We are seen as 'flawed' but not the corruption of the West!  The Nature of Man is still inherently Good!  One must be true.. the other false...

Here is something I just posted on CCS that might help you to understand the divergency of thinking.  Its from John O'Donohue's book 'To Bless the Space Between Us', from page 82.  It shows the approach to 'sin nature' that is radically different than Rome's.

"...When a person is at home in his life, he always has a clear instinct about the shape of outer situations; even in the midst of confusion he can discern the traces of a path forward. When one is at home in oneself, one is integrated and enjoys a sense of balance and poise. In a sense that is exactly what spirituality is: the art of homecoming."

Something to think about...

Slan,
Marty
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9 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2008 - 10:51AM #30
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Iona is a special place for me, and many others who seek the celtic way to spirituality.

My wife and I have been there only once, for a few days. we attended services at the Abbey and we soaked up the beauty and spirit-charged atmosphere of the island. We wandered over the island to Columba Bay where St.Columba is said to have landed. We stood on the white stones of the shore and thought with tears of the time when those stones were red with the blood of the saints through the violence of Viking raids.

The following words come directly from the Iona Community website, they proclaim the communities' view on the issue of sexuality. This of course is 'newspeak' for homosexuality.

I quote in part:

We welcome people of all ages, ethnic groups, differing abilities and sexualities in the Iona Community. We believe in the sacredness of all human relationships, .....

About 10% of our membership and staff are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender. They are fully and openly part of our common life, part of our body......We rejoice to share in the blessing of their civil partnerships.

In the Christian marriage service, those entering into marriage make vows of love, fidelity and loyalty, and promise to honour and cherish one another. ... But Christian marriage is not the only form of covenant relationship in which people are committed to honour and cherish one another on the basis of love, faithfulness and loyalty. Covenant relationships exist between people who are not legally married, including those of the same gender....

The Iona Community recognises and respects all the covenant relationships of its members and is committed to working to combat discrimination on all grounds, including sexual orientation.

How sad, desperately sad, it is for me to see the birthplace of celtic Christianity degenerate into a centre of moral corruption with little regard for the clear teaching of Christ and the natural order of His Creation with respect to relationships.
This can only serve to warn us about the dangers of wandering away from Biblical teaching.

On a brighter note, an island that has suffered the moral outrage of Viking slaughters can surely withstand this modern disease of the soul.
...but only while some remain true to God's laws of Creation.

Please pray for Iona.
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