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Switch to Forum Live View Can of Worms! (tough issues in CC)
6 years ago  ::  May 28, 2008 - 8:54AM #1
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings all,

I'm sure most of us have seen those internet sites that claim that CC is just another (earlier) form of either Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant traditions.  I'm not too concerned with their claims but the truth is that, while CC has much in common with these three traditions, it still varies with all three at some points in its theology.  Most of the Early Churches varied with each other until unified under Roman rule in the West.  CC was the last holdout for a unique form of Christianity.

Another problem for many is the modern tendency to 'add' CC to what they already hold as the proper way to relate to God.  While that is not terrible, it doesn't bring them any closer to the full understandings that our Celtic ancestors had.  Some approaches are in direct conflict with each other but remain unaltered for the sake of comfortability!

CC is about the journey of discovering Christ our Creator, still alive and visible in everything / everyone around us.  It is the task of dieing to ourself and our preconceptions to see the Light of Christ in all His Creation.  This will radically alter our perceptions and consequently cause us to respond to life with His Eyes and His Heart.  In 'Purpose Filled Life', Rick Warren stated the sentiment that CC holds true also.  This life is about learning Fellowship with God so that we are not strangers for all Eternity.  CC is about Harmony with Him!

Christians come to CC from all paths and traditions.  Many are 'high church' (liturgical), most are of the more recent 'low church' (evangelical) approaches.  What I have seen most often is a simple 'substitution' of prayers, liturgy or worship songs that give their worship a 'Celtic flavor'.  Again, this is not bad.. but it is missing the whole point of the Journey!

So.. I've started this thread to serve as a venue for discussing those 'natty' issues that are and are not part of CC.  May the Lord's Wisdom bind us in His Unity...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 10:26AM #2
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Good thread, so I shall have the honour of posting the first question.

When I first came here I was looking for info on Celtic Christianity. I confess that I was disturbed that I had to find not only CC but other Christian forums surrounded by every other religious dogma on the planet.
No doubt Beliefnet believe they are being non-discriminatory by opening up it's netspace equally to all religions and views.
But I am one who believes the Way of Christ is the ONLY path to truth and eternal life, all other ways are false and misleading.

That said, should the CC forum have it's own home, a place where seekers will not be distracted on their way by falsehood and error?

Can of worms, eh?
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 10:38AM #3
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
I am learning that this doctrine was not believed by all early celtic believers. However, I find it hard to refute.

I am rooted in the conviction that any belief we hold as Christians must be supported and verified by the Word of God, else who is to know what is true if we have not the "yardstick" of God's Word to measure and compare the vain thoughts of men by?

In these modern times, when there seems to be no absolutes, not rules, no moral laws, no values...the notion that we should be regarded as sinners in need of a Saviour is less palatable than ever before.
The idea of original sin would surely be unfashionable, but is it true or is it a Roman doctrine to be ignored along with other Roman superstitions?

The doctrine of original sin is the name given to the concept of the entrance of sin into the world through the disobedience of Adam and Eve. God had prepared a perfect place for man and then gave them the gift of free will.
God had placed trees in the midst of the garden. Adam and Eve could freely eat the fruit from any tree except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. “But the LORD God gave him this warning: 'You may freely eat any fruit in the garden except fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die' (Genesis 2:16-17).

This doctrine of original sin is cemented in the New Testament through the writings of the Apostle Paul to the church at Corinth. “So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, Adam, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man, Christ. Everyone dies because all of us are related to Adam, the first man. But all who are related to Christ, the other man, will be given new life” (1 Corinthians 15:21-22).

“The Scriptures tell us, ‘The first man, Adam, became a living person.’ But the last Adam -- that is, Christ -- is a life-giving Spirit” (1 Corinthians 15:45).

What Biblical argument could be made to dismiss this foundational doctrine of Christianity?

I would like to know.
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6 years ago  ::  May 30, 2008 - 5:30PM #4
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings Graham,

Mea culpa, mea culpa!  Would you believe I began this thread but forgot to subscribe to it?  Older is not always better!

In your question on 'original sin', you have struck upon a controversy that goes back to the 4th Century Church.  St. Morgan (Pelagius) along with the Eastern Fathers refuted Augustine's infusion of this concept into the Western Church.  With Augustine's Gnostic backgrounds the idea of 'mankind's inherent corruption' conflicted with our view of the Good within Creation as well as those of the Eastern Church that view Creation as an Icon of God.

There are many good books out on the market today that reflect the Celtic perspective on this issue.  (That wasn't the case a decade ago when I started!)  One that I will recommend to you is Celtic Christianity, by Timothy Joyce.  Another would be a book on Pelagius but its a bit pricey!

In your post you mentioned that it is a Catholic doctrine, that's true.  However, that same theology is just as much a part of Western Protestant thought as well.  Original Sin is the foundation stone of Calvinism!  As for Scriptural justification for putting it aside, I would suggest a word study on the word 'sin' (harmetia).  It does not carry the concept of 'corruption' that the Roman Church introduced! 

Perhaps, many of the views that you hold are not as scriptural as you may think?  Much of the popular Evangelical Theology of today only arose in the early part of last century.  Its only assumed by its followers that it was the original!  Many of whom are woefully shy on Church History.  Often, I have found, that while Scripture is worthy of living as the center of your understandings, it is the interpretations that others placed on it, the 'popular interpretations' that seem to rule.  This is merely group conformity rather than good scholarship!

Well, good luck in searching out this issue.  If I can be of any assistance, please don't hesitate to bring it here.  Another thing you might want to check out are our doctrines of 'Immanence of God' and the lack of 'dualism' in creation (good and bad natures simultaneously).  Thanks again for sharing...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 10:21AM #5
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Thanks, I've ordered Timothy Joyce's book, Marty, you are costing me money here!! :)
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6 years ago  ::  May 31, 2008 - 10:30AM #6
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Marty, re. Roman doctrines within 'protestant' churches, I need no convincing there. I neither fit into not care for much of what I see in protestant teaching, whether it be the 'holy-rolling' of penticostals, the secret rapture of Brethren or the baby baptising of Anglicans....there is certainly little unity there.

I was thrilled to learn that two of the more "distinctives" of the celtic church revolved around the Sabbath and an annual Lords supper (communion). These are two things I have practised for over 30 years, and here I find them (acc. to some sources) in the celtic belief!

I shall remain open as I can on the 'original sin' question. Regardless of doctrine, I am convinced that Celtic Christianity has much to offer us still.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 6:58PM #7
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Three books have arrived from Amazon, books recommended here.
The Book of Creation, and Christ of the Celts by J. Philip Newell and Celtic Christianity by Timothy Joyce.

On the negative side: if I'd known Joyce was a Benedictine Monk I would not have bought the book, I have no interest in those who cling to the doctrines of the church that destroyed the Celtic Church.
Book for sale, if anyone wants it.

I've begun reading The Book of Creation, bit early for a review but there are some nice thoughts there.
However, to see Newell quoting Eriugena who did not believe that Genesis is a chronological account of the Creation of the earth is a real concern.
To glean more and greater mysteries from Creation week is fine, but if Newell is denying the accuracy of a literal 6 day creation then this would throw into doubt the authority of Gods written and inspired Word.

I shall continue reading with an open mind to all except that which conflicts with the foundation of the Bible.
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 9:20PM #8
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings Graham,

HEHEHEHE.... Now come on!  Afraid of a little contrary doctrine?  Well, I know what you mean!  As a former Catholic in my 'other life' (before 30) I was a little hesitant about it as well.  Let me encourage you to go ahead with it.  I was actually pleasantly surprised by Joyce!  It was refreshing to hear someone speak openly of where he considered his Church was missing it!  You wouldn't want to miss that now, would you?  Beyond that, he made some really good points that I found of value in my early Celtic walk.  You really might enjoy it.  I have my copy among those CC books that I value most...

Newell's 'Christ of the Celts' will be a difficult one for you to swallow from your fundamentalist position.  Its probably more of an 'advanced' CC book but it will give you the gist of all we hold.  Please remember, we don't ever stray from Scripture in our belief but we do not hold with the Fundamentalist interpretation of it either!  Fundamentalism is actually a modern phenomenon in spite of its assertions for 'originality'.

I think the 'bad press' that Eriugena gets today is the remnant of the Roman Church's branding of CC as Pelagianism.  Its taught as heresy but is unfounded!  They weren't interested in truth back then, just conformity to Rome!  All of CC's teaching from the Early Church are presently being reviewed by scholars and the results are coming in in out favor.  Finally!  Just keep the open mind you spoke of and let the Spirit speak plainly...

You'll love Newell's 'Book of Creation' but if you want something with more meat to it on an introductory level, I'll still recommend his 'Listening for the Heartbeat of God'.  It gives a simpler overview of CC. 

I am glad that you are continuing your studies, I think you are in for a treat that will open your eyes.  History is fascinating and sometimes stranger than fiction!  There's just so much more that I never knew even existed when I was in your position.  May God bless your studies and the journey before you...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2008 - 11:04PM #9
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Thanks Marty, very encouraging as always, slainte,
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6 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2008 - 10:13AM #10
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Graham,

I just got a link I think you will be interested in!  One of our members over at Celtic Christian Spirituality found a nice article on the resurgence of interest in CC.  Its about 4 pages long but its really good!  I hope you'll find it of interest... http://www.crosswalk.com/pastors/11570921/page1/

Slan,
Marty
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