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Switch to Forum Live View Can of Worms! (tough issues in CC)
6 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2008 - 10:02AM #41
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Sorry Marty, cannot agree with you on Iona. However you define sin, it certainly includes the sin of sodomy. I could not be part of any church of fellowship that allows, encourages or condones such practices and does not rebuke it. (yes, I note that you disagree with their statement, glad to hear it).

I speak of those who call themselves brethren when I say we are instructed by God to gently lead a brother who is in sin to repentance and Gods Grace, if he won't listen we take an elder, and if he still won't listen we put him out from among us. God is Judge and will deal with them.

Anyway, Iona seems to have lost it's foundation in the Word of God so there is little point perhaps in leading them when such rebelliousness exists.

Interestingly, George Hunter, in his book The Celtic Way of Evangelism notes the changes on Iona.
He writes about George McLeod's setting up of the community based on "renewal, justice, prayer, healing and evangelism. following McLeod's death, the Iona community has dropped his interest in evangelisation, and has redefined 'mission' around causes like peace, justice, ecology, urban ministry, Gay and Lesbian causes, and 'inter-faith dialogues."

If the modern understanding of "celtic perspectives" means tolerating mockery and corruption within the so called church of the institution of marriage and the natural male/female relations, then I want no part of these modern perspectives.

Happily, I am confident that founders like Patrick and Columba would have been horrified at such behaviour on Iona.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2008 - 12:48PM #42
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Graham,

Regarding 'sin' (harmatia), again, its not my definition!  If you want to hold true to the Word of God then you need to read it and live it in its original intent!!  Also, again, the Bible is a book for each of us individually, so that WE may learn how to relate to and fellowship with our Creator.  It was not designed to be a book to judge others.  That's where the fundamentalists are really 'off base'!  To live by its principles of Love, as Christ did, is how we are called to respond to this world, however you see it!

I do understand, though, how you feel.  Iona was someplace special, someplace sacred.  I do believe in the sacredness of place but I cannot look at institutions or organizations, I must see that Christ is there first!  Then I can submit to its sacredness!

David said something interesting the other day in one of his posts.  He mentioned that CC is 'varied'.  I'll spare you my long journey here but suffice it to say, I agree with David.  We all come from various walks and traditions.  Unfortunately, we tend to bring them with us when we first start this journey.  Its just who we are!  I've come across many who encounter CC, love it and want to make it their own!  But that's the problem!!!  To make it your own is to make it conform to your previous beliefs!  So, what we end up with is an Anglican Church that is now Celtic (sort of).  Or an Orthodox Church that claims to be the 'original'.  I've seen it will all groups claiming to be 'Celtic Churches'.  Some will even provide you with a long list proving Apostolic Succession!  I believe, Iona is one of these 'blended' places now!  Celtic externals but still Roman / Anglican / Presbyterian / Baptist to its core!  In these circumstances, you can't get very far with a 'mixed' version of CC.  CC was different than these Roman counterparts.

I've also come to realize that you are very devout in your devotion to the Bible.  The Celts reverenced it also but it was more a tool they used to guide themselves.  The Holy Spirit guided them in how they lived it.  It was their compassion for others that won them so many souls, not their 'righteous judgment'.  Perhaps it would be better for me to stop trying to convince you with words about something that seems so alien to you.  That's fine!  Its the 'Celtic' thing to do!  Take you as are you are and let God lead us both...!  I appreciate your stance.  I appreciate your participation here.  CC is not a 'do what you feel' religion, its really tough to see the Light of Christ in everyone and every situation.  It takes a lot of discipline!!!  But it does conform itself totally to Scriptures in all things, just not in the way you see it.  My hope is that you continue on in your studies and remain open to His leadings.

May God continue to guide and bless us all...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2008 - 10:02AM #43
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Sorry Marty, cannot agree with you on Iona. However you define sin, it certainly includes the sin of sodomy. I could not be part of any church of fellowship that allows, encourages or condones such practices and does not rebuke it. (yes, I note that you disagree with their statement, glad to hear it).

I speak of those who call themselves brethren when I say we are instructed by God to gently lead a brother who is in sin to repentance and Gods Grace, if he won't listen we take an elder, and if he still won't listen we put him out from among us. God is Judge and will deal with them.

Anyway, Iona seems to have lost it's foundation in the Word of God so there is little point perhaps in leading them when such rebelliousness exists.

Interestingly, George Hunter, in his book The Celtic Way of Evangelism notes the changes on Iona.
He writes about George McLeod's setting up of the community based on "renewal, justice, prayer, healing and evangelism. following McLeod's death, the Iona community has dropped his interest in evangelisation, and has redefined 'mission' around causes like peace, justice, ecology, urban ministry, Gay and Lesbian causes, and 'inter-faith dialogues."

If the modern understanding of "celtic perspectives" means tolerating mockery and corruption within the so called church of the institution of marriage and the natural male/female relations, then I want no part of these modern perspectives.

Happily, I am confident that founders like Patrick and Columba would have been horrified at such behaviour on Iona.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2008 - 12:48PM #44
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Graham,

Regarding 'sin' (harmatia), again, its not my definition!  If you want to hold true to the Word of God then you need to read it and live it in its original intent!!  Also, again, the Bible is a book for each of us individually, so that WE may learn how to relate to and fellowship with our Creator.  It was not designed to be a book to judge others.  That's where the fundamentalists are really 'off base'!  To live by its principles of Love, as Christ did, is how we are called to respond to this world, however you see it!

I do understand, though, how you feel.  Iona was someplace special, someplace sacred.  I do believe in the sacredness of place but I cannot look at institutions or organizations, I must see that Christ is there first!  Then I can submit to its sacredness!

David said something interesting the other day in one of his posts.  He mentioned that CC is 'varied'.  I'll spare you my long journey here but suffice it to say, I agree with David.  We all come from various walks and traditions.  Unfortunately, we tend to bring them with us when we first start this journey.  Its just who we are!  I've come across many who encounter CC, love it and want to make it their own!  But that's the problem!!!  To make it your own is to make it conform to your previous beliefs!  So, what we end up with is an Anglican Church that is now Celtic (sort of).  Or an Orthodox Church that claims to be the 'original'.  I've seen it will all groups claiming to be 'Celtic Churches'.  Some will even provide you with a long list proving Apostolic Succession!  I believe, Iona is one of these 'blended' places now!  Celtic externals but still Roman / Anglican / Presbyterian / Baptist to its core!  In these circumstances, you can't get very far with a 'mixed' version of CC.  CC was different than these Roman counterparts.

I've also come to realize that you are very devout in your devotion to the Bible.  The Celts reverenced it also but it was more a tool they used to guide themselves.  The Holy Spirit guided them in how they lived it.  It was their compassion for others that won them so many souls, not their 'righteous judgment'.  Perhaps it would be better for me to stop trying to convince you with words about something that seems so alien to you.  That's fine!  Its the 'Celtic' thing to do!  Take you as are you are and let God lead us both...!  I appreciate your stance.  I appreciate your participation here.  CC is not a 'do what you feel' religion, its really tough to see the Light of Christ in everyone and every situation.  It takes a lot of discipline!!!  But it does conform itself totally to Scriptures in all things, just not in the way you see it.  My hope is that you continue on in your studies and remain open to His leadings.

May God continue to guide and bless us all...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2008 - 11:39PM #45
Tassiecelt
Posts: 46
Thank you Marty, I do try to remain open. I see much in modern CC that attracts and excites me, as well as some real concerns with some of it's modern writers.
Nothing will deter me from the importance of Holy Scripture, without being disrespectful to God - I see as much nonsense from some who claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit as we both see from those claiming "..the Bible says..
My belief has always been 'guided by the Holy Spirit - always in harmony with the written word'.

I continue reading and "testing all things". Since Paul warned of false teachings and saying that "after my parting, grievious wolves would enter in, not sparing the flock". So even some of the very early church writings have to be tested by what is reliable that we may be kept on track and not "blown about by every wind of doctrine".

I know...too Roman haha!!
blessings of the Three to you
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 15, 2008 - 7:20AM #46
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Graham,

"Too Roman"!?  I think about 80% of Western Christianity, Catholics and Protestants, are more in harmony with Rome than they realize!  However, about testing and discerning, you're right on!  And our Celtic ancestors did the same.  I was very skeptical in my earlier years, actually, a 'hard sell'.  Eventually the Lord opened up new understandings of Scripture which brought me peace in the transition.  My hope is that you'll continue along your Celtic Path as well, brother...

Its been a pleasure chatting with you on Skype, when you have the time and interest, please feel free to continue.  May the Lord of Light and Understanding continue to lead all who seek Him in their hearts...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 15, 2008 - 2:22PM #47
Phantasm
Posts: 767
Seekerdrd, thanks for your opinion.  Sometimes it just takes a perspective from another person to enter the conversation and clear things up.  Hey, I'm just starting out here, trying to understand the Celtic perspective.  I've only been here for a few months.  As usual, the discussion has been stimulating!
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 15, 2008 - 8:38PM #48
seekerdrd
Posts: 98
Phantasm, no problem. I appreciate you asking questions as it helps me to refine my own beliefs as well as confront issues I may not have thought of otherwise.

David
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2008 - 6:45AM #49
mfjfarrell
Posts: 236
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Greetings All,

As I've mentioned before, one of the worst infusions into Early Christianity was the doctrine of 'original sin'.  It is still so pervasive throughout the west and has had such devastating affect on our theology.

The other day a member of CCS provided a link to an Orthodox site dealing with 'Ancestral Sin', the alternative to the west's 'original sin'.  It explains very well the Early Church's concept of sin/redemption from a perspective more in line with Celtic Theology.  I'm not espousing ancestral sin, just wanted to offer and understanding about what we believe regarding God's attitude towards 'fallen' mankind.

Here's the link and a short abstract...

http://www.antiochian.org/ancestral-versus-original-sin

"The differences between the doctrine of Ancestral Sin--as understood in the church of the first two centuries and the present-day Orthodox Church--and the doctrine of Original Sin--developed by Augustine and his heirs in the Western Christian traditions--is explored. The impact of these two formulations on pastoral practice is investigated. It is suggested that the doctrine of ancestral sin naturally leads to a focus on human death and Divine compassion as the inheritance from Adam, while the doctrine of original sin shifts the center of attention to human guilt and Divine wrath. It is further posited that the approach of the ancient church points to a more therapeutic than juridical approach to pastoral care and counseling."

May the Lord of all harvests bear fruit in your lives...

Slan,
Marty
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