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Switch to Forum Live View History Question about Calvanistic Scotts
6 years ago  ::  Nov 30, 2008 - 10:43PM #1
Liriodendron
Posts: 36
I was wondering if the Calvanistic, Presbyterian Scotts connect back into Celtic Christianity and if not, where the break happened?  Anyone know?
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2008 - 8:38PM #2
mfjfarrell
Posts: 237
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Lillian,

A few years back there was a group in MSN called the Celtic Church in Scotland.  They seemed to have a fairly well organized system of 'church planting' there and in the US.  They had a training school for various levels ministry with name COSA but I forget what it stood for.  They swore that they were the true remnant of the Celtic Church and they had a lineage to prove it (at least to themselves).  I haven't heard much from them these past few years.  The truth is that they were still Presbyterian at heart.

You can easily check out the history of the beginnings of the Presbyterian Church on the net, I won't bore you with it here.  Its sufficient to say they were not Celtic in anything but desire!  The Celtic Church disbanded in the decades following 664 A.D. but the practice of Celtic Christianity lived on in the people.  Still, it is a 'church-less' religion, at least at present.  It is merely a choice to walk in the ways and understandings of our ancestors.  That seems to be a hard concept for many, they are used to the institutional form of religion.  Honestly.. that's too easy!  This requires that your life continually be 'involved' in 'seeing' and then 'doing' as the Spirit leads!

Seeing Christ in mankind and nature sets it opposed to Calvinist thinking of corruption due to the Fall.  I can't see how these two could possibly be associated.  Good luck in your quest though, I wish you well...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2008 - 9:30PM #3
Liriodendron
Posts: 36
OK, I took a few minutes to look it up.  The Presbyterians started during the Reformation by John Knox who was a student of Calvin.   Yeah, I agree that's pretty incompatible with CC.

I know the Cetic church ended in the 7th century, but the principles and prayers seemed to have lived on better in the Catholic Irish than in the Presbyterian Scotts.  Maybe that is because a strong new movement like the Reformation is more likely to blow out old ideas, whereas the Celtic ideas were better able to hide under Catholic tradition.
However, I doubt every Scottsman went whole heartedly for Calvanism.  It seems like there would have been some who keep the old ways even under a cloke of presbyterianism.

One reason I was wondering is that the earliest Scot Irish settlers to North America were Presbyterian.  Some ,who moved quickly into the Appalacian Mountains, became isolated and their music and language stayed "old" for a long time  - I wonder if their religion did too.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2008 - 8:38PM #4
mfjfarrell
Posts: 237
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Lillian,

A few years back there was a group in MSN called the Celtic Church in Scotland.  They seemed to have a fairly well organized system of 'church planting' there and in the US.  They had a training school for various levels ministry with name COSA but I forget what it stood for.  They swore that they were the true remnant of the Celtic Church and they had a lineage to prove it (at least to themselves).  I haven't heard much from them these past few years.  The truth is that they were still Presbyterian at heart.

You can easily check out the history of the beginnings of the Presbyterian Church on the net, I won't bore you with it here.  Its sufficient to say they were not Celtic in anything but desire!  The Celtic Church disbanded in the decades following 664 A.D. but the practice of Celtic Christianity lived on in the people.  Still, it is a 'church-less' religion, at least at present.  It is merely a choice to walk in the ways and understandings of our ancestors.  That seems to be a hard concept for many, they are used to the institutional form of religion.  Honestly.. that's too easy!  This requires that your life continually be 'involved' in 'seeing' and then 'doing' as the Spirit leads!

Seeing Christ in mankind and nature sets it opposed to Calvinist thinking of corruption due to the Fall.  I can't see how these two could possibly be associated.  Good luck in your quest though, I wish you well...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2008 - 9:30PM #5
Liriodendron
Posts: 36
OK, I took a few minutes to look it up.  The Presbyterians started during the Reformation by John Knox who was a student of Calvin.   Yeah, I agree that's pretty incompatible with CC.

I know the Cetic church ended in the 7th century, but the principles and prayers seemed to have lived on better in the Catholic Irish than in the Presbyterian Scotts.  Maybe that is because a strong new movement like the Reformation is more likely to blow out old ideas, whereas the Celtic ideas were better able to hide under Catholic tradition.
However, I doubt every Scottsman went whole heartedly for Calvanism.  It seems like there would have been some who keep the old ways even under a cloke of presbyterianism.

One reason I was wondering is that the earliest Scot Irish settlers to North America were Presbyterian.  Some ,who moved quickly into the Appalacian Mountains, became isolated and their music and language stayed "old" for a long time  - I wonder if their religion did too.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2008 - 2:33PM #6
mfjfarrell
Posts: 237
Dia annseo isteach!
God to all here!

Hey Lillian,

Celtic Christianity lived on past the 7th century in both Ireland and Scotland.  As you may realize by now, real religion is in the way people behave not where they attend meetings on Sunday.  One of the best examples of Celtic Prayer comes from the work done by Alexander Carmichael of the mid 1800's.  Its entitled 'Carmina Gadelica'.  Its the prayers and hymns of the Highland and Island Scots of that period.  We use this same patterns in our own daily prayer times.

The Celts always sung the day into existence and blessed and thank the Source for all things they did or that happened.  With the coming of Christianity, this tradition continued addressing him now as the Christ.  Whether Catholic or Protestant, they continued with those age old traditions up to modern times as well.  Its from Carmichael's voluminous work that we know well how and what our ancestors believed.

As for the Appalachian folk, are you familiar with 'klog dancing'?  Does it remind you of the 'set dancing' of the fair Irish traditions?  The music may be a bit more mixed but its still played with same passion as the forebearers who brought it here!

Thanks again for your interest and questions here...

Slan,
Marty
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2008 - 9:18PM #7
Liriodendron
Posts: 36
Yes to the dancing and even more to the fiddling - at least old time fiddling.  But I don't think the 'Carmina Gadelica' (which I do have) prayers made it over.  So I wondered if the process of become Presbyterian drove it out of them.
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