As this thread has continued in a 'debate' turn, I've moved it here form Christian Faith and Life.

Beautiful_Dreamer

Beliefnet Community Host

Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate

Hey, GO d Girl, great thought to stir up some fun.  I've not read the thread, because I'll feel compelled to stop along the way and "correct" wrongs I perceive.  HEY, at least I admit to my behavior.

I think proclaiming Jesus is God is pointless, and irresponsible.  We can no more know His relationship to God, as we can picture in our mind the beginning and ends of infinity.   It can't be done, and we can't fathom the relationship between them. 

I'd go on to say, that you don't have to understand GOD to grow in your relationship with Him.  One BIG problem among those proclaiming to be "Xians" is their need to put God in a box.  Rather than how you live, people profess their faith is related to what they know.  And I gotta tell you that's a sad state.

Eastern theology is the roots of our faith.  In Eastern thinking minds, finding the next question, is more wise than finding an answer.  Western, romanized, Greek developed logic is the creator of explaining God in understandable terms.  The intrinsic issue is we can only use Anthropomorphisms in the descriptions.   Calvin made a WHOLE THEOLOGY that he had to commit murder to sell to the public off of an anthropomorphism.  It's like trying to goven by using analogies as your law.  Too many variables.

Paul took an eastern thinking faith, and made sense of it to the western thinking minds.  He was uniquely qualified for it.  Tradition tells us he was taught by Gamaliel, and that Gamaliel came from Aristotle's school.  So picture Gamaliel as a super attorney, and Paul his disciple.  Aristotle schooled Alexander the Great as a personal tutor.  So, that gives you some idea of the level of thinking dealt with. 

Paul took the hebrew faith he grew up in as the son of a pharisee, making his childhood picture one of having a different study of law, like a double major by the time he was an adult.  He understood the hebrew faith, traditions like few others would.  And he had the western training to help convert it in a way to make sense to the west.  As a result, you are Xian today. 

It's western thinking that demands you understand Jesus is God. 
What difference does it make?

Will that thought change God's mind on your relationship with Him?  Is it a requiement?  Or is it just one more piece of knowledge to puff up our minds to stir more debates and show who knows more? 

Knowledge puffs up, works build up.  Biblical facts.

Thanks for posting an interesting thing to ponder.

Jun 22, 2012 -- 4:53AM, Brainscramble wrote:

Jan 15, 2009 -- 8:18PM, Godgirl wrote:

Do you believe that Jesus is God? or not? Why? What scripture, personal experience or thought processes have lead you to believe he is God. And if you dont believe, why?

Wow, this subject just got moved from another forum, so it's new here.  I'm just going to answer the OP and then read the rest of the posts.

Do I believe that Jesus is God?  No.

Why?  Because he plainly stated that he was God's SON and that the Father is greater than he is.  (John 10:36; John 14:28)  In prayer to his Father, he stated clearly that the FATHER is "the only true God."  (John 17:3)  If the Father is God, according to Jesus himself, then Jesus would not be God.

If someone reads the Scriptures without the preconceived notion that God is three individuals, that person can understand without much trouble that the Father is the only true God and Jesus is His Son.  Anything further is contrived by men.

(See also John 20:17 where Jesus calls the Father his God.  Why would he say that if he was God?)

Jesus is my Lord but he is not my God.  We are to have only one as our God and he is Jesus' Father.  He has a personal name and it is represented by four Hebrew letters which in English is something like "YAHWEH." 

Oft times when people ask that question in public, "Do you believe that Jesus is God?" they have more in mind than a simple yes or no answer.

If you say "yes," they may say, "Than how is it Jesus said He was the Son of God?  

If you say "no," then they may accuse you of heresy and denying the Trinity, or they will say, "Then how did Jesus walk on water, restore sight to the blind and rise from the dead?"

Personally, I like the way Jesus phrased the question better... Matt 16:13-18 > When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"  So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." Jesus said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."

The God of heaven revealed to Peter, a humble Galilean fisherman, that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ the Son of the Living God.

I do not want to assume the level of understanding everyone reading this post might have, so let's start by considering Peter's first statement, that Jesus is the Christ. It does not take long, when reading the Epistles, to see how thoroughly the leaders of the early Church associated the Christ to Jesus, even calling Him, Jesus Christ, which to us sounds like a first and last name. But in ancient times, no one understood "Christ" to be Jesus' last name. Rather, the word was a synonym for "king." The word literally means "anointed one," which in Jewish culture, meant anointed by God to rule. Jewish kings and priests were anointed in a ceremony where fragrant olive oil was poured over their heads, thus setting them apart to rule over the people.     

Thus the Christ was a king, set apart by God to rule over the people. Luke 23:2 And they began to accuse Him, saying, "We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King." Mark 15:32 Let the Christ, the King of Israel, descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe."

Notice how those who mocked Him associated the word Christ with king. Thus we should understand that when Peter confessed Jesus as the Christ, he believed Jesus was anointed by God as the king of Israel, the king of the Jews.

Moreover, in the Jewish Scriptures the prophets spoke in many places about the coming of a new deliverer, like Moses, who would be sent by God to deliver and save the Jews from their oppressors. And so it was that the Jews were looking for Messiah, (the Hebrew word for "Christ" which was Greek) the Christ, the King God was going to send to them to deliver them from the oppression of Rome, and restore the kingdom and power of the Jewish nation over the rest of the known world.

This is who Peter thought Jesus Christ was... King Jesus. So, the next time you read that phrase in the NT, Jesus Christ, think King Jesus instead, because that is what it means; thus, when we believe in Jesus, we are accepting Him as our Lord and King. In America, and other nations - democratic nations, we have no kings, thus some people find it difficult to relate to the idea. We elect leaders, and if we don't like'em, we throw'em out by electing new leaders in a few years. However, a king is king for life, His word is law, and complete allegiance and fidelity are required from all His subjects. Thus if King Jesus is your king, that means that you have accepted Him as Lord and Master, and committed yourself to live and die by His command, and understand that His word is the Law. Do you believe in Jesus Christ = King Jesus? I do.

Now lets us consider Peter's second statement, "you are the Son of the Living God." Given the fact that the Gospels are almost 2000 years old, and how we just saw how the word Christ has a different meaning than what we, 2000 years removed, are commonly given to think it means, it should surprise no one that Peter's second affirmation is a loaded phrase too... a phrase loaded with meaning.   

"The Son of the Living God;" of course we all know what a son is, and that a living God must be different from a dead God, or from a god that never really existed, an idol or an imaginary deity. So we can pretty much deduce that Jesus was a human son of a real God, not just some imaginary being, or a demon spirit, or a stone idol. And given the Jewish context of the Gospels, the Living God would have to be the God of the Jews, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. The God who lives, does not grow old, is not subject to death, but Who continues to exist forever.

This is the God who revealed Himself to Moses, Who, when asked about His name, introduced Himself as I am that I am... the ever-living God... the Eternal.

And so it was that Peter confessed Jesus as king and the Son of the eternal God. Moreover, this was something he came to believe, not by human deduction, but because God Himself revealed it to Him.

Okay, if you are anything like me, your probably thinking something like, Okay, I get it, what's the big deal about that? Jesus was the Human son of the Eternal God, I get it...

But what most of us do not get, because of our culture norms, is something the Jews of 2000 years ago readily understood. Consider how they reacted to Jesus when He plainly told them that He was the Son of God.

John 10:31-38 > Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'?  If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?  If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." 

Matt 26:63-66 >And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! What do you think?" They answered and said, "He is deserving of death."

> Why all the heat? Why accuse Jesus of blasphemy? Why condemn Him to death? Was it totally impossible, to their way of thinking that God, who created all things, and formed Man in the beginning, could have a Son?

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God."

> You see, according to the Jewish mindset, a firstborn son was as good as a father. Once a father had raised his son, and presented him publically as his son... in a ceremony called adoption, the son was in essence the same as the father. All that the father was, the son was. All that the father owned, the son was his heir. And therefore, all that the father was, the son was... So when Jesus came on the scene calling Himself the Son of God, the Jews understood that He was making Himself out to be equal with God, the same as God... in essence a Divine Man.   

And this is what Peter's big revelation was all about, God revealed to Peter, that Jesus was the King of the Jews, and that He was His adopted Son, His firstborn heir, thus making Jesus equal with God... basically making Jesus Divine in His own right. And this is why, in traditional historic Christianity, they equate the phrase Son of God with God the Son... because they believe the Son is God in His own right, not the same person as the Father, but a second person of God.

Moreover, this was the dividing issue between Judaism and Christianity in the first and following centuries... they did not believe that the Messiah would be the Son of God. They believed He was supposed to be the son of David, and thus the rightful heir to the throne of Israel - which He was by the way. But they could not believe Jesus was the Son of God, because that violated their concept of God, the oneness of God. To the Jews there was only one God and no other but He, a teaching which Jesus accepted btw. But there was no room in their concept of God for a second and third person of God; which is why Peter's revelation was so extraordinary, and explains why the Jewish leaders condemned Jesus for blasphemy and demanded Pilate have Him crucified.  

So do I believe Jesus is God? Yes, and No.

I do not believe Jesus is the God who sent Him, but I do believe Jesus is God, as to His nature... and thus He is a second Person of God, of the Father, having existed together with God the Father from the beginning.

John 1:1-4 > "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

~ Theophilus

I definitely believe Jesus Christ is God. The main reason is because of what Christ said in John 58:8: Before Abraham was, I AM. In exodus (Moses and the burning bush), when Moses asked who to say had sent him, God said "I AM." If Jesus was not God, he would not have given himself the same name as God.

JFG