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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 3:31PM #81
Leight
Posts: 1,438
....today it even occured to me that, that visitation of Gods Spirit which I recieved was invoked by the circumstances of a lady, my friend, being denied a position as a cook there at that place of employment.......that is when I questioned why Chris could not be a cook there, that man himself said something to the effect that they had had women cooks there in the past, but that she was "different".....even though she was next in line for the promotion, there was sexist bigotry there concernining her, .....and , meanwhile there I was there washing dishes and joking to myself of how I was baptizing the dishes, with a broken heart..........

....think of it, what kind of church should we have.....one wherein the women are seat segreated and do not speak.......although there is mention of men and women singers in Ezra....what of Marys song, that is her utterance, by; the Holy Spirit of Jesus's ministry?......no we are missing something here when we have women silent as the "law" demands.....indeed the gentile church was given little "law"...that is were they not told to not fornicate, to abstain from meat offered to idols and something else ( not to eat blood or animals strangled)( I don't have my Bible here)......for me too the point is that Church seems to want to resemble and go back to be not a family but some institution of the law like the temple......I sat through a Catholic homegoing service recently, and later i thought, is this really what God intended? All this ritual and robes? Is this really His Church? Now granted that they are indeed saved,as are a lot of Christians....but the yoke of the law that we seem to religiously want in order to carry around men on our shoulders, instead of the living, loving, simple ways of Christ.........indeed even the evolution from the "house" churches where surely ritual and robes were absent, ..to these Edifices, where no one feels at home..........I question the shape and structure of our present "Order of God" wherein the true power of love is absent, where we have the form, but little else............There i am told be Jews who study to rebuild the Temple with all its religisiouty...but the Christ, lives , moves, breaths, and acts in great ways in those who are simple with love and pure of motive, who really know not any title but friend....
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 4:13PM #82
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Unitedbygrace wrote:

Paul was not called to be a pastor. Paul was an apostle called by the Lord Jesus Christ. Secondly, even though Paul was not married at that time, it would be unwise to believe he was not married at some time (although we know nothing of his wife) because of his place in the Jewish leadership before his conversion--which had this requirement.\



I disagree; see: Ac 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

It was the unmarried men who were defferent to the elders-held their coats ect... and the word neanias (young man under 40)  often connotates bachelor status.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 4:14PM #83
Leight
Posts: 1,438
....also, something else along this whole stream of doctrine seeking I would like to address which I find disturbing....that is  any equilivalance being put forth between the having of female Pastors and the operation of the gay agenda.......for one thing, this is about holy women in a holy vocation, and the other is an abdecation of the holy,....for Mary did have a little lamb, whose fleece was white as snow........and there are husbandless families of whom God is the husband....yet the woman is the visible head....

....I know right after salvation, I became 'religious" and sought a church, dispite a groan from the Holy Spirit.......and there I saw and heard the duplicity, that is among men, Pastors included, the subtle dispargement of women, and yet the acceptance of their teaching "Marylinn Hickey et. alia"....and yet the acceptance of women, and yet their non acceptance......exceptions are made for some, and for the masses quietness is expected.......and yet I remember her and her strong pure eyes who said to me " come on over to mah house" as if she were proud of her warm home and wanted me to be with her and her friends while we played touchfootball........and incidently Untited By Grace,...I think she was a quarterback......
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 4:46PM #84
Unitedbygrace
Posts: 189
[QUOTE=Leight;304173]....today it even occured to me that, that visitation of Gods Spirit which I recieved was invoked by the circumstances of a lady, my friend, being denied a position as a cook there at that place of employment.......that is when I questioned why Chris could not be a cook there, that man himself said something to the effect that they had had women cooks there in the past, but that she was "different".....even though she was next in line for the promotion, there was sexist bigotry there concernining her, .....and , meanwhile there I was there washing dishes and joking to myself of how I was baptizing the dishes, with a broken heart..........

....think of it, what kind of church should we have.....one wherein the women are seat segreated and do not speak.......although there is mention of men and women singers in Ezra....what of Marys song, that is her utterance, by; the Holy Spirit of Jesus's ministry?......no we are missing something here when we have women silent as the "law" demands.....indeed the gentile church was given little "law"...that is were they not told to not fornicate, to abstain from meat offered to idols and something else ( not to eat blood or animals strangled)( I don't have my Bible here)......for me too the point is that Church seems to want to resemble and go back to be not a family but some institution of the law like the temple......I sat through a Catholic homegoing service recently, and later i thought, is this really what God intended? All this ritual and robes? Is this really His Church? Now granted that they are indeed saved,as are a lot of Christians....but the yoke of the law that we seem to religiously want in order to carry around men on our shoulders, instead of the living, loving, simple ways of Christ.........indeed even the evolution from the "house" churches where surely ritual and robes were absent, ..to these Edifices, where no one feels at home..........I question the shape and structure of our present "Order of God" wherein the true power of love is absent, where we have the form, but little else............There i am told be Jews who study to rebuild the Temple with all its religisiouty...but the Christ, lives , moves, breaths, and acts in great ways in those who are simple with love and pure of motive, who really know not any title but friend....[/QUOTE]

Leight,

Yes, yes, yes!  Religiosity, legalistic approaches, etc. are found in many churches.  And I agree, there should not be traditions of men floating in our churches.  But I would also suggest that traditions of men are not what scripture say.  How can we call something that Christ ordained legalistic?  Is it scriptures commands that we do not want to hold ourselves to that become "legalistic" in our eyes?  Or is it the demands of man, traditions and yokes never put on us by scripture?

My church is a warm, loving, caring church.  The women do not preach and are not elders.  But they have a great ministry (ministries) in our local congregation.  Our church would fall apart without the work of the women.  I personally am involved in several ministries in my church, some lead positions--just not pastor or elder or teacher of a men's SS class! 

I do teach a very warm and intimate women's class.  I also speak at women's events.  I am assistant to the Sunday School Superintendent and help in the organization, direction and curriculum of the SS classes.  I am a deaconess, the head deaconess if that is necessary to point out.  This past year alone the deaconesses have put together and participated in two neighborhood outreaches, we have completed several fundraisers for our children's camp needs, we have visited sick and hospitalized, started many prayer chains, take care of preparation of the Lord's Supper, decorate the church for Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, meals, and many, many more things. 

I do attend Bible study and seminary.  I do ask questions or give comments in these classes as do other women and we are free to do so.    We are not called unto silience upon entering the church and I do not believe that is what the scripture is saying either.

Even with all we women do in our church, we do not hold positions as pastors or elders.  We do not feel slighted, but honored that we have faithful men who will take those positions and gently, lovingly, truthfully, lead our local assembly and honor God in these positions. 

We have a husband and wife team who do praise and worship, a female choir director, and women are asked to give testominies regularly too.  We have husband/wife missionary teams & guess what?  They both speak to us about their ministry from the pulpit.  Women are never excluded or told to be quiet.  They just do not preach, teach or lead the men spiritually.

There is no greater joy in my heart than to see my husband occaisionally preach the word.  I do not feel slighted that he can and I cannot as I believe I am honoring God in my womanhood by submitting to His desire to have the men hold the pastor/elder positions in the church.

It grieves me that your church experineces are not as good--but done in God's way, there is perfect balance, great love and joy and churches that are warm,  inviting and growing in Christ.  Ours happens to be one!

Grace to you!
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 4:59PM #85
Anesis
Posts: 1,542
"....and there are husbandless families of whom God is the husband....yet the woman is the visible head...."

Good point, Leight. I am the head of my home, and I tell you, having that for many years would be impossible to give up if I were to ever remarry. I simply could not hand my parental authority over to a man who is not my son's father. I am the head of my home, the head of my son, and I always will be - even when I am an old woman, and if he ever stops learning (and I teaching) from me, then my familial connection with him is doomed. I will teach him, even when he is a man, and I hope he will learn from me as a man.

And if I am ever fortunate enough to find a marriageable companion, I hope he has enough humility to learn from me, a woman, just as I  hope to also learn from him.

Women and men learn from each other - even in the context of the formal family relationship. I do not want to marry a man unless he is as willing to learn from me as I am from him, and I do not want to marry someone who has nothing to teach me. Aah, the equal yoke, which goes far beyond that of simply belonging to the Christian fellowship.
An
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 5:49PM #86
Unitedbygrace
Posts: 189
[QUOTE=davelaw40;304274]I disagree; see: Ac 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

It was the unmarried men who were defferent to the elders-held their coats ect... and the word neanias (young man under 40)  often connotates bachelor status.[/QUOTE]

The one who they lay their coats at the feet of was the one consenting of their murder of Stephen as verse 8:1 says.  Paul did not particiate in the stoning himself, but consented they do it which is why they lay their coats at his feet.  He was the chief sinner, the one who was the leader of the persecution.  Their throwing of coats to him was not because he was a young man...

There is much evidence in scripture that would suport the idea of Paul being married at one time.  However, there is little, if any evidence that suggests Paul had never married.  Here are some of the many verses that show he had probably been married at one time:

1.  1 Corinthians 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried (agomoi) and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.  Greek 'agomoi' for unmarried refers to those who had been previously married and no longer were.  Paul has put himself into a classification with those who had been previously married, but were no longer for whatever reason, suggesting they should not remarry but remain alone as he had.  He does not refer to himself as Greek 'Parquenos' which means virgin.

2.  Paul claims to be  'of the stock of Benjamin, Hebrew of the Hebrews' (Ph 3:5), a Pharisee and a son of a Pharisee (Acts 23:6).  this strict Hebrew upbringing would have put Paul in the same environment and under the same yoke as other Jewish families.  Tradition was that these men were married before they reached there mid twenties--an arranged marriage by the parents.  Paul could not have been an exception if he claimed to be from a strict or devout Jewish upbringing.  He even sat at the feet of Gamaliel and learned, who was a member of the Sanhedrin.  Paul certainly would have conformed to this important Jewish tradition of marriage.

3.  A member of the Sandhedrin was required to be married.  Paul was considered to be a member of the Sanhedrin, which is another study.

Of course, there is more information, but I am not trying to lay out the study--just show the things that differ.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 6:25PM #87
Unitedbygrace
Posts: 189
[QUOTE=Anesis;304403]"....and there are husbandless families of whom God is the husband....yet the woman is the visible head...."

Good point, Leight. I am the head of my home, and I tell you, having that for many years would be impossible to give up if I were to ever remarry. I simply could not hand my parental authority over to a man who is not my son's father. I am the head of my home, the head of my son, and I always will be - even when I am an old woman, and if he ever stops learning (and I teaching) from me, then my familial connection with him is doomed. I will teach him, even when he is a man, and I hope he will learn from me as a man.

And if I am ever fortunate enough to find a marriageable companion, I hope he has enough humility to learn from me, a woman, just as I  hope to also learn from him.

Women and men learn from each other - even in the context of the formal family relationship. I do not want to marry a man unless he is as willing to learn from me as I am from him, and I do not want to marry someone who has nothing to teach me. Aah, the equal yoke, which goes far beyond that of simply belonging to the Christian fellowship.
An[/QUOTE]


Hi An,
Yes, there are many leaders of households that are women.  I wish it did not have to be so.  It certainly was not God's intention, but sin came into the world and well many things were not intended by God but they are so.  Nonetheless, His word makes provisions for all things.

I understand your position, being a single parent of two boys myself for many years--one now a young 20 year old man.  He was 15 when I remarried, the other 10.  And I praise God for the husband He brought into my life, into the lives of these boys.  He is the leader of our household, he teaches, instructs corrects, guides, and has just as much parental authority over my boys as do I.  Of course, the same is true in reverse--I have the parental authority he does over his four children.  I support what he says and he supports what I say.

My boys have a great relationship with him and have grown greatly because of him.  That is not to say that I do not teach, guide, correct them any longer.  But it is to say we do it together in the best way we know as God instructed. 

My younger son who is now a 15 year old, has the closest relationship with my husband of all 6 of the kids.  My husband will tell you that the two of them are closer than any of the others as well.  This is not to say he loves him the most, but that they have the closest relationship of all--probably because they spend the most amount of time together.   Teachers at school have many times commented on the change in my son (for the better) since he got a dad.  I praise God for it and would never want to see it jepordized.  But that relationship carries just as much authority as all the others (from my husband).

Do you think Joseph had authority over Jesus as a boy? Scripture calls Joseph the boy's father many times.  I think it is safe to say he did.

Also, my husband learns from me and I from him.  Surely saying that he is the leader does not suggest he does not learn from me.  I mean leadership requires a spirit of meekness, humility, and that a person be teachable.  Most pastors I know will even comment on things they learned from their wives or other women.  I guess I just cannot see why we need to make male leadership a bad thing or something that restricts in this way.  That is certainly not what I take from God's word on leadership.  And any man who takes this role in such a way is not doing it to the glory of God.

You know single women have many responsibilities that are difficult to attain.  I remember having to work on my own car, plumbing, etc. just to name a few.  But just because they have no spiritual leader at home, they certainly are not left in the cold.  This is just another reason for the church having men as leaders.  But God made provision with older, godly women to assist the younger women too.  There is reason for this order, reasons that have not even been discussed.  And I have never seen a woman go wrong following this order.

I guess what I am saying is that regardless of the situation, God's direction should be followed and it will produce godly fruit.  His direction is not one of bondage, but one of freedom.  But the world tells us that male leadership is dictatorship and that it rebukes equality.  God certainly does not view it that way nor do I. 

We need to get past the worlds input and rely on God's Word.  If He said it we know He is faithful and best for us.  He never said men should not learn from their wives, submit in love to their wives or even one another in Christ.  Yet He called them as leaders of the church and of the family and of the woman.  Imho, this is where the world has infiltrated into the church and caused compromise.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 8:20PM #88
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Unitedbygrace wrote:

The one who they lay their coats at the feet of was the one consenting of their murder of Stephen as verse 8:1 says. Paul did not particiate in the stoning himself, but consented they do it which is why they lay their coats at his feet. He was the chief sinner, the one who was the leader of the persecution. Their throwing of coats to him was not because he was a young man...

There is much evidence in scripture that would suport the idea of Paul being married at one time. However, there is little, if any evidence that suggests Paul had never married. Here are some of the many verses that show he had probably been married at one time:

1. 1 Corinthians 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried (agomoi) and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. Greek 'agomoi' for unmarried refers to those who had been previously married and no longer were. Paul has put himself into a classification with those who had been previously married, but were no longer for whatever reason, suggesting they should not remarry but remain alone as he had. He does not refer to himself as Greek 'Parquenos' which means virgin.

2. Paul claims to be 'of the stock of Benjamin, Hebrew of the Hebrews' (Ph 3:5), a Pharisee and a son of a Pharisee (Acts 23:6). this strict Hebrew upbringing would have put Paul in the same environment and under the same yoke as other Jewish families. Tradition was that these men were married before they reached there mid twenties--an arranged marriage by the parents. Paul could not have been an exception if he claimed to be from a strict or devout Jewish upbringing. He even sat at the feet of Gamaliel and learned, who was a member of the Sanhedrin. Paul certainly would have conformed to this important Jewish tradition of marriage.

3. A member of the Sandhedrin was required to be married. Paul was considered to be a member of the Sanhedrin, which is another study.

Of course, there is more information, but I am not trying to lay out the study--just show the things that differ.



I know the arguments; i find them unpersuasive

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 9:48PM #89
Leight
Posts: 1,438
....forgive me, I'm not calling anyone any names or anything like that....I am probing, and its like that one issue that comes up, that of baptizing......well I was "saved" and sitting in church many years ago and wondered how I could be "saved" and having not been immersed, indeed even at that very church service I raised my hand to recieve the Christ, even though I had already been "saved' by Him, indeed i even asked to recieve the Holy Spirit , even though I had already been "filled"......the point I'm tryin to make is that the human mind is "religious" and it seeks (at least mine does and did) to fit Gods things into mans things.....and this may be because of some prior religious conditioning.........even the religious leaders of Jesus's day did not know who he was, dispite their careful learning of Him, even the pre Apostle Paul, that great man of letters was reduced to stoning Christians, ...Steven in particular.....so, it all comes down to a revelation of the Spirit..."who do men say I am," ...."who do you say I am?"  ....and upon this rock, of revelation the church is built....not upon Peter, but on the fact that Jesus is the Son of God........so my dilima is that God used a woman mightly to deliver me from the Kingdom of Darkness, and i must reconcile that fact with the role of the woman of the church of today, which upon examination seems to be something akin to how Muslim women are expected to be.............I yeild to Scripture, but I don't think I or we as a Body have arrived at whatever it is that is the "Royal Priesthood, the Holy Nation"  " Indeed, is not the purpose of the five fold ministry to grow us up, us all up into Christ......what parent does not want the same loving adult status for his or her child, indeed are not we all present tense citizens of heaven, seated together in Christ in heavenly places?


.........how did her face get into my heart of hearts, and how was it that I saw her face looking upward....her face against the snow that I would ride my bike through to wash dishes?......and then the Wind came and I with great knowledge and peace put off my body, and was bore inside the Wind upward and heard God speak, who said "It matters to do good", and I knew Love....

....a godly woman is precious in the sight of God, and too, she is a fierce target of demonic hatred.......there is as a matter of fact finding I would say and I say as best i can "No lesser roles or loves for any godly woman given by God" ......the Apostles are gone, killed for the most part, ....so she can be a prophetess, evangelist, teacher.....just not some say, a Pastor....and yet i know a lady Pastor and belong to her church....a choice my "religious" mind would have not too long ago quarrled with....maybe I had to grow up...and rest on doctrines buried as Deborah, Mary, Ruth, Ester, and walk such Scriptures with God.....
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2008 - 10:56PM #90
Unitedbygrace
Posts: 189
Leight,

Thank you for your words, which are filled with passion and deep feelings of love for God and others.  I do not doubt that God used a woman to touch your heart, nor do I doubt that God uses all women in His Body as ministers of reconciliation, Ambassadors for Christ. 

I hope that you understand that I do not believe women have limitations in equality, but that God has expressed Himself to us through His Word and His word has been completed according to prophecy and according to the mystery, which was revealed to the apostle Paul--this day of grace.  Since that which is perfect (His Word) is come and therefore prophecy, among other spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 13 is no longer in effect, it has been done away with and our trust is left in the Holy Scritures only.

What I am saying is that I trust God's Word which tells me that He has given me all revelation--no more revelation to follow, be they prophecy, thoughts, feelings or other.  Yes, God can speak and does speak to our hearts outside His Word.  But so does our flesh and so does the prince of darkness.  We can only test these thoughts, ideas, feelings through God's Word to see if they be so.  In doing that on this subject of pastors/leaders, I cannot believe women are to lead the church as elders or pastors, even though they are great teachers/leaders and can and have done other leadership positions throughout church history. 

I believe the Word does NOT indicate that the other women mentioned in scripture were pastors or elders and therefore, no proof can be found in those passages.   I do see many other verses that careful study would call God's order to be one giving leadership to the man, even since the beginning of time.  For these reasons, I can only submit to what scripture says and not to my feelings or what I want.  We cannot ignore these passages that are clear and precise in so many ways.

I admit that as a woman, God is right--I did have to fight desires to want man's position, especially since my gifts are teaching/counseling/discernment.  But the more I submit to God and His Word, the more I bathe myself in His holy scriptures, only then I see myself being transformed into a woman who does not desire leadership over men, but loves the wonderful position God has given me and the influence it has--being a woman.  I can use all these gifts according to God's desire for me in the Body.  I do use these gifts accordingly and have been greatly blessed--far beyond measure for it.  That is the glory of it all--doing it God's way no matter how I feel because I know He promises a good result!

May God's Word convince you and others and myself in their mind completely and always--in whatever the area may be, as we are all held responsible before God to study to show ourselves approved unto God, workman who need not be ashamed and rightly divide the word of truth.

Grace to you!
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