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7 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2008 - 8:52PM #1
Leight
Posts: 1,438
I currently have a lady Pastor, yet in conversations with her, she confides to me because someone else questions her on it, the doctrinal basis for a lady Pastor......what is the truth?
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2008 - 9:39PM #2
miami-ted
Posts: 981
Uhh, let's see, what the Scriptures say?

God bless.
In Christ, Ted.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 14, 2008 - 9:58PM #3
miami-ted
Posts: 981
You know, I've been married more than once and as I understand the Scriptures that removes me from the position of pastor or deacon in Jesus' church.  Now that doesn't mean that I can't do just about anything that the pastor or deacons do as far as witnessing and sharing with others and caring about their needs, but deacons are also held to a standard that when looked at by others in the church we should say that we would want to emulate them.  As Paul said, 'follow me as I follow Christ.'

It needs to be understood by every Christian that God has established rules by which his church is to be operated here on earth.  We all have gifts and responsibilities to the church, but we are not all qualified to do all the jobs included in the church.

We can all get degrees and become ordained ministers in some denomination out there, but that makes us just like satan.  We think we know better than God and we can do it better than how God has set out that it be done!  God told Adam and Eve that they could eat of every tree in the garden except for one.  Well, Eve decided that there wasn't really any harm in it and ate it and then Adam followed.  God set out for the Israelites a certain set of laws and commands that they were to follow.  Well, they all thought they could do it better and made up their own rules and regulations and God gave every prophet that he ever sent to them the message that they were not keeping his commands, yet when Jesus confronted them and told them that they were not in fact children of God they said in one voice.  We have Abraham as our father, we are not illegitimate children!

God has established in his church that men are to be the leaders and deacons and we can either accept our place or not, but we are going against God's commands.  You do realize that in the Levitical priesthood it was all the sons of Aaron who would serve.  Now I know that the world says that that's not right and for the world it may not be, but for the Christian, God gets to set the rules and we are his servants.  We may all kick at the goads if we so choose or we may understand our place and do all that God has given us to do from our place that God has ordained for us to do it.

Yes, I know that today there are women by the thousands in the priesthood and that this message is not well received, but then neither was the message of condemnation that God handed down to Adam and Eve for their disobedience and neither was God's response to Moses when he had him slay all of the people who had bowed down to a stupid golden calf just after God had done some of the most miraculous things that he has ever done to show himself.

God has established a hierarchy among mankind and in that hierarchy the male is given over the female, just as Paul says that woman came from man.  Do what you will and worship where you like, but I don't believe that if we were to ask God, which by the way you do that every time you open up the Scriptures, he would approve.

God bless.  Let the arguments begin!
In Christ, Ted.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2008 - 1:13PM #4
TalithaKuom
Posts: 556
Shabbat Shalom!
Leight, there is nothing - NOTHING - in Scripture that says women cannot become pastors. Quite the contrary, there's precedent of strong, female leadership: Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Phoebe ("a deacon in the Church of Cenchraea), Priscilla, Lydia, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Junia, Nympha, Persis, Chloe, Syntyche and Euodia, among others.
After all, Christ has thrown down the barriers. In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, free nor slave.
Peace of Christ!
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2008 - 1:13PM #5
TalithaKuom
Posts: 556
Shabbat Shalom!
Leight, there is nothing - NOTHING - in Scripture that says women cannot become pastors. Quite the contrary, there's precedent of strong, female leadership: Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Phoebe ("a deacon in the Church of Cenchraea), Priscilla, Lydia, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Junia, Nympha, Persis, Chloe, Syntyche and Euodia, among others.
After all, Christ has thrown down the barriers. In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, free nor slave.
Peace of Christ!
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2008 - 3:49PM #6
Leight
Posts: 1,438
....please no negatives......non of this for me is theoretical...

....i do know in Christ there is no male or female.....i do remember how God used a woman to love me into the Kingdom of God,...of how she loved me and sheparded me without me or herself really being aware of such........and for her sake the skys split for me and I was extracted from the midst of hissing demons......and I remember how in the "Spirit" I relized a mothers love for her and I knew the anquish of trying to cover her and because of the arrows knowing my heart seperate in dispair....men as women inside......the Bride of Christ....no hyperbole.......

.....so let there be no debate as such, but silence if there be none with doctrine.....

.....and yes God did have women as Judges in the OT....Ruth , Ester, ct....must have counterparts in the NT.........again "Doctrine Please"....  and that for me was and is important, that God used a loving, seminary untrained women who had no "church", but her eyes to summon me lovingly and trustingly to a touchfootball game......I would have eaten out of her hands........and she was Jesus........................did she shepard me? Yes she did. Was it religious? Not reconizition as such, although I had a broken heart that had me praying for death. It was the very essence of Jesus's ministry wherein He said, " I have been sent to heal the broken-hearted"................and if I had of rejected her, I this day would be unknowingly on my way to Hell........I do remember the moment the Holy Spirit manifested Himself so to speak in her name ,of how  life and death were set before me, and I was scared enough to choose life.....


....so God uses women.......how little and how much.....
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2008 - 5:09PM #7
TalithaKuom
Posts: 556
Shabbat Shalom!
Who's debating? :)
This issue has been debated for some time on the Christian-to-Christian debate boards. I've got more up my theological sleeve. I believe all true doctrine is derived from the Bible. And having studied the Bible - especially the Pauline letters - I (and many others) have concluded the Bible provides no gender-based pastoral litmus test. Culture did that on its own.
Yes, ancient Israel was a patriarchy (it was certainly not, however, the worst one). Ancient Israel also owned slaves. But, while the Bible accepts the social realities of patriarchy and slavery, it never condones them and it certainly doesn't support them.
Peace of Christ!
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2008 - 8:58PM #8
Leight
Posts: 1,438
...i'd like to read everything up your sleeve, ....because many thoughts suggest themselves to me, for instance it is God who gives Pastors ect...and even that word is it gender specific in the Greek? I don't have my Stongs here with me.....but again, whatever you have that may be helpful, I don't mind reading.....thanks and God Bless...
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2008 - 12:20AM #9
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669
Leight, if you are patient.... read this thread... it has the arguments both for and against.

http://community.beliefnet.com/forums/s … php?t=4861
Non Quis, Sed Quid
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2008 - 3:37AM #10
LiveOak
Posts: 119
Dear Leight,

There are a couple of issue here. The first is defining "pastor", since our use of the word nowadays is slightly different. In the New Testament, the role of"elder (or presbyter)", "shepherd (or pastor)", "overseer (or bishop)" were all the same job (see Acts 20:17-31 to see all of these terms used as Paul gives his final message to the Ephesian elders.) The role of elder was different than the role of an evangelist, such as Timothy and Philip (2 Tim 4:5, Acts 21:8, Eph 4:11). Although much of what they did was similar, the elders (pastors) were to oversee a particular congregation of believers, while evangelists were out spreading the news - they often stayed with a congregation for a long period, but I don't read that they were ever called pastors of that congregation.

In today's Western society, we are raised that men and women can do everything equally, except get paid equally for the same work. This is mostly true: men and women are capable of excelling in every field, though it is easier for men and women to be better in some functions than others. It violates our senstivities when we think that God might exclude capable women from performing tasks of which they are skilled and desiring to fulfill. However, there are many scriptures that are contrary to this societal view, and we have to decide who we're going to follow, or how we can marry the two in good conscience.

When Paul gave Timothy and Titus instructions on how to select elders (1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1) and deacons - in each case the instructions were that candidates should be men. Backing up slightly is a very contentious verse, where Paul says "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (1 Tim 2:11-12)  While Paul is making a distinct differentiation between men and women, the only church that doesn't have internal conflict on how to define the boundaries are the ones that ignore Paul entirely in this point.

While all evangelists and elders specifically listed in the Bible are men, many women are recorded to also have important missions (Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollos, which suggests that Priscilla was not "quiet" in this teaching, but since this teaching was a discussion in their home, it may not be considered "teaching over" or having "authority". Lydia hosted one congregation in her home. Several women were referred to as "deaconesses" or "deacons' wives", depending on the translator. The Apostolic Constitutions from the 4th century indicated deaconesses mimistered to women where it would not be appropriate for men, such as baptisms.)

While some indicate that the reason for male elders and deacons was due to the patriarchal culture at the time, we need to recognize as well that Jesus came to change culture, and he said many things that steamed the Jewish leadership because it went against their traditions and power. However, while Jesus included many women in his ministry, all twelve of the Twelve were men. Was it because these twelve were called because they were more knowledgeable because of cultural educational differences? Acts 4:13 indicates that Peter and John were unschooled, ordinary men, so I don't think that is it.

I think a clue is in Ephesians 5:22 and following, where Paul lays out the order of things. The Archie Bunkers use the word "submit" as a license to claim superiority and entitlement, but that is 100% wrong. I see "submission" as "sub-mission", a mission that supports the primary mission. God had a mission, and Philippians 2:1-11 explains how Jesus had equality with the Father, but emptied himself and became a servant - his mission supported the Father's mission. The church, the bride of Christ, in turn needs to have a sub-mission in support of her husband's mission (Eph 5:24), and families were charged to emulate the relationship between Christ and his bride. The husband is to submit to Christ and pour out his life to serve his bride, in the same way Christ did for us, while the wife is to have a sub-mission of the husbands mission, which is in submission to Christ. I believe the structure of church and family were to remind us of our relationship to God.

That said, I believe women have the ability and obligation to counsel without violating 1 Tim 2:11-12, as Priscilla joined with Aqulia in teaching Apollos, as the Samaritan woman in John 4:28-42 told others about what Jesus told her, and Mary Magdalene was given a message to take back to Jesus' brothers in John 20:17. In each of these cases, the women were telling what they knew, but did not have any organizational "authority", such as an elder or evangelist. I welcome anyone who will share God's word with me, and have been frequently given knowledge, encouragement, challenge, even rebuke, by women (including my wife), and I believe all were given in accordance with Paul's instruction.

Cheers!

Dave
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