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6 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2008 - 6:07PM #41
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

miami-ted wrote:

Hello Dave,

You'll have to show me your reference to Lydia. I looked her up and all I could find was that Lydia heard the gospel message and was saved and that Paul went to her house to encourage the brothers. I don't find any reference that she was a leader in the church.

God bless.
In Christ, Ted.



context and usage   Lydia was the leader of the Jewish womens prayer group


Ac 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 12:40AM #42
LiveOak
Posts: 119
[QUOTE=davelaw40;296832]1Co 9:5 have we not authority a sister--a wife--to lead about, as also the other apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? (YLT)

it does not actually say Cephas took his wife with him does it?  The Gospels mention Peter's mother in law but never his wife.

1Co 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.[/QUOTE]

Dear Dave,

Are you seriously impyling that Peter and the other apostles and the Lord's brothers were traveling with their sibling sisters, or with unmarried sisters-in-Christ?? I'm sure there are other places to see multiple translations of texts to try to get a wide view of scholars' translations, but www.bible.ca/bible-text/search-f.htm provides more than a dozen. The vast majority agree with the NIV outright, and the others are as cryptic as the YLT. Literal translations offer some value, but unless you are expert in understanding sentence structure, idioms and other linguistic subtleties, you can come up with a message wildly different than the author intended.

I'm sorry I missed your point in bringing up 1 Corinthians 7:7 and highlighting "all". This verse is in the same tone of all of chapter 7, stating that Christians are better off if they stay unmarried like him, because they will have undivided devotion to the Lord; he acknowledges that there is no sin in marrying, and those guided this way do the right thing (but those who do not marry do even better). I'm not sure what this has to do with our discussion, I'm afraid.

I also don't understand how you can conclude that Lydia was an overseer of the church in Philippi. In Acts 16:15, she was baptized with her household and "she invited us to her home. 'If you consider me a believer in the Lord,' she said, 'come andstay at my house.' And she persuaded us." I'm not sure how long it was from this time to the next verse when Paul and Silas were going to a place of prayer and ended up being beaten and thrown in prison, but it was immediately after this that they were asked to leave the city. "After Paul and Silas came out of prison, they went to Lydia's house, where they met with the brothers and ecnouraged them. Then they left." (Acts 16:40) Did Lydia really become an elder in that short time? Does hosting the church in your home mean that you are automatically a pastor of the church?

I want to understand where you're coming from, so please offer me a little more explanation.

Thanks,

Dave
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 9:34AM #43
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

LiveOak wrote:

Dear Dave,

Are you seriously impyling that Peter and the other apostles and the Lord's brothers were traveling with their sibling sisters, or with unmarried sisters-in-Christ?? I'm sure there are other places to see multiple translations of texts to try to get a wide view of scholars' translations, but www.bible.ca/bible-text/search-f.htm provides more than a dozen. The vast majority agree with the NIV outright, and the others are as cryptic as the YLT. Literal translations offer some value, but unless you are expert in understanding sentence structure, idioms and other linguistic subtleties, you can come up with a message wildly different than the author intended.

I'm sorry I missed your point in bringing up 1 Corinthians 7:7 and highlighting "all". This verse is in the same tone of all of chapter 7, stating that Christians are better off if they stay unmarried like him, because they will have undivided devotion to the Lord; he acknowledges that there is no sin in marrying, and those guided this way do the right thing (but those who do not marry do even better). I'm not sure what this has to do with our discussion, I'm afraid.

I also don't understand how you can conclude that Lydia was an overseer of the church in Philippi. In Acts 16:15, she was baptized with her household and "she invited us to her home. 'If you consider me a believer in the Lord,' she said, 'come andstay at my house.' And she persuaded us." I'm not sure how long it was from this time to the next verse when Paul and Silas were going to a place of prayer and ended up being beaten and thrown in prison, but it was immediately after this that they were asked to leave the city. "After Paul and Silas came out of prison, they went to Lydia's house, where they met with the brothers and ecnouraged them. Then they left." (Acts 16:40) Did Lydia really become an elder in that short time? Does hosting the church in your home mean that you are automatically a pastor of the church?

I want to understand where you're coming from, so please offer me a little more explanation.

Thanks,

Dave



she was leadership of the pre-existing prayer group of Jewsih women and wasn't rebuked for that-when she became a believer and yes if a VIP stays at your house that is considered an endorsement of your activities

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 10:13AM #44
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

LiveOak wrote:

Dear Dave,

Are you seriously impyling that Peter and the other apostles and the Lord's brothers were traveling with their sibling sisters, or with unmarried sisters-in-Christ?? I'm sure there are other places to see multiple translations of texts to try to get a wide view of scholars' translations, but www.bible.ca/bible-text/search-f.htm provides more than a dozen. The vast majority agree with the NIV outright, and the others are as cryptic as the YLT. Literal translations offer some value, but unless you are expert in understanding sentence structure, idioms and other linguistic subtleties, you can come up with a message wildly different than the author intended.



i didn't put the word adelphe in there God did; and the word for wife there is gune-go figure

this isn't a new debate; the gnostics used this passage and a few others to justifiy their sexual immorality-i'm certainly not going there

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 11:23AM #45
miami-ted
Posts: 981
Hey An,

You wrote:  I keep bringing up Deborah because Israel was a nation consecrated to God, so they were a spiritual nation, in need of a spiritual leader, and God appointed Judges to do so, rather than the worldly way of appointing Kings. She was, in essence, a spiritual king, not just a political or judicial leader. Her position was not just to lead a Sunday service congregation, but to shepherd the whole nation. It was her job to teach the law of the Lord.

Yes, of course, she was all of that and I'm sure more, but God didn't give any gender conditions concerning judges.  The Scriptures only account that the Lord raised up judges to rule over the people and make judgments.  No, this is not the same as the temple service.  The temple service of priests had been instituted way back when the Israelites were coming out of Egypt and even when God appointed the judges, they did not in any way take the place of or usurp the power of the temple priests.  It was a totally separate job function.   It is not in keeping with the Scriptures to say that just because God used women over here in this job that women should therefore be acceptable in any job that serves God.  It does not logically follow.

God bless.

In Christ, Ted.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 11:35AM #46
miami-ted
Posts: 981
Hello Dave,

You wrote:  context and usage   Lydia was the leader of the Jewish womens prayer group


Ac 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.




I'm sorry, but I can't jump from that to what you are assuming is meant.  Quite frankly I don't even see the connection that you're making that she was even the leader of the group.  However, even if she was, I don't find any restriction on a woman leading a woman's prayer group, but honestly it looks a lot like the 'wailing wall' to me.  This was a place where many women gathered on a regular basis to pray and it was just a special place that they had carved out for themselves.  Many women apparently met, at will, by the river at this place to pray on a fairly regular basis and the disciples, men by the way, went down to talk to them and this woman Lydia, who sold fine purple, heard what they were saying by the blessing of God's Holy Spirit and she then was baptized along with her family and invited the disciples to stay over at her home for the night.

I'm very sorry, my friend, but I can't make the connection.

God bless.

In Christ, Ted.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 1:00PM #47
Anesis
Posts: 1,542
"It was a totally separate job function. It is not in keeping with the Scriptures to say that just because God used women over here in this job that women should therefore be acceptable in any job that serves God."

It does in my opinion, since being a judge is a job about the spiritual and religious leadership of Israel. Not only that, but when the curtain in the temple tore, all were welcome into his presence, which destroyed the priesthood, opening it up to all. And the Spirit is not discriminatory in his gifts - administrative or teaching, or prophesying or or encouragement, or with mercy or evangelism.

We will have to agree to disagree.
An
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 5:38PM #48
miami-ted
Posts: 981
Hello An,

You wrote:  since being a judge is a job about the spiritual and religious leadership of Israel

I don't believe that that is a correct assessment of the position.  Being a judge was about making discerning decisions regarding disagreements and arguments among the people.  Yes, their decisions should always, when applicable, be based on the law as handed down by God through Moses.  As a matter of fact if you read further to where the people didn't want judges anymore but desired a king like all the other nations had, God is on record that he was their king, but they refused to honor him as their king, they wanted someone they could touch and speak to like every other nation had.  So I believe it is clear that the judges did not fill the position of any kind of leader of the people.  On the other hand the position of priest was someone who would intercede for the people before God.  The priest did not settle disputes.  There is nowhere in the bible that you will find that in their job description.  They are two completely separate jobs and God may allow Hillary Clinton to rule as president over this country, but that does not mean that she is qualified as a person of leadership in the church.  However, I can see that you feel very strongly about this and have done some deep study and so yes, I agree, that we will agree to disagree.

As I said before, I always respect your opinions and knowledge of the Scriptures, so my intention here is only to have each one just double check what they believe.  Just as Dave has claimed that Lydia was some sort of leader in the church.  There is no biblical support of that and so he has probably picked that up from some commentary or article written on this very subject, but I don't honestly believe that anyone can read the Scriptures, even in the original Greek and find evidence that substantiates such a claim regarding Lydia.  She was merely a Jewess who gathered with several other of the women, which was the law in the Jewish custom.  Women did not mix with the men and it is still that way today in many orthodox Jewish temples.  Paul being a converted Jew to Christianity knew that there was really no Scriptural bases for this separation and went and spoke to the women who were gathered there.  This woman Lydia did receive the gift of understanding through the Holy Spirit and accepted Christ as Lord and was baptized along with her family.  It should probably be understood that on that day she and her family may have been the only Christians in all of Phillipi.  So naturally the first Christians would have begun to meet at her house since she was the first to understand the gospel and be saved, but this in no way indicates that she then or any other time assumed the leadership of the Phillipian church.  It may be true that just as the woman at the well, she may have taken her new found faith in the Lord and with great zeal and excitement went about the city bringing many others to salvation through the Lord which would have eventually become the church that Paul wrote to in his letter, but still there is never any indication that she held any position of leadership as pastor (shepherd) or deacon.

God bless.
In Christ, Ted.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 5:53PM #49
miami-ted
Posts: 981
Btw,

If you will check the commentaries you will see that what Lydia and the other women were doing was very commonplace in that time.  If any city or town did not have enough 'qualified' Jewish men, it required 10, then there would be no temple for them to meet in on the Sabbath so it was common in the smaller towns that the few Jews would meet on the Sabbath in a small group, men somewhere and women somewhere else, and they would hold their Sabbath ceremonies.  This is exactly what Paul and the disciples came upon.  They came upon a group of women who were holding a Sabbath meeting and it was customary that these small meetings were held outside of the city and often by a brook or other water source.  I gathered this information from my own commentaries.

God bless.
In Christ, Ted.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 19, 2008 - 6:36PM #50
LiveOak
Posts: 119
[QUOTE=Anesis;298898]"It was a totally separate job function. It is not in keeping with the Scriptures to say that just because God used women over here in this job that women should therefore be acceptable in any job that serves God."

It does in my opinion, since being a judge is a job about the spiritual and religious leadership of Israel. Not only that, but when the curtain in the temple tore, all were welcome into his presence, which destroyed the priesthood, opening it up to all. And the Spirit is not discriminatory in his gifts - administrative or teaching, or prophesying or or encouragement, or with mercy or evangelism.

We will have to agree to disagree.
An[/QUOTE]

Dear An,

I see you are trying to end a fruitless debate, but I'd like to encourage you that it has not been completely fruitless. Knowing how to read the Bible and historical documents is a lot of detective work, and many times when I see issues laid out in scripture by instruction and example, it can be a puzzle trying to see how the pieces can best fit together. I normally end up with several possible explanations, which my mind will gauge from "most probable", to "possible", to "unlikely", to "are you serious?", and sometimes I feel all of my explanations are equally poor. On one hand 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 are clear on how Timothy and Titus are told to select elders/deacons (though I fully understand it is not an exhaustive list, I have a hard time rejecting what is on the list.), but on the other hand, I need to take a closer look at the possibility that "servant" in Romans 16:1 indicated a title.

I have difficulty applying a lot of the Old Testament to instructions to the church today; true, it was a "shadow of the things to come", but it also has been nailed to the cross. If I take Deborah being a judge as evidence that she can be an elder of the church, do I also have to assume Samson is qualified? David - the man after God's own heart, led Israel, and Nathan even told him that God had given him "wives" - would someone with David's history make an acceptable elder of the church today? I'm not trying to be silly, I just feel that I need to be honest in how I apply scripture, and TRY not to pick and choose application that fits what I already believe. So I find Deborah to be interesting case of a woman leader in a patriarchal society, but I also have to caution myself that it is not universally applicable that men and women are the same. If the Holy Spirit is not discriminatory in his gifts, then what are the odds that all of the Twelve Apostles plus Paul were all men?

Are any of the qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 litmus tests for you, or are they general guidelines that say we should pick "good" people, however we define "good" in our heart.

Cheers,

Dave
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