| 5 years ago :: Jan 04, 2008 - 8:32PM #21 | |
|
Anesis,
My understanding is the Hebrew (Jewish) faith of that day included "annual Sabbaths", that we might consider similar to our holidays, except the Hebrew annual Sabbaths were intended to be instructive in their faith ( and also redemptive). Further, Christ criticized the priests of those times for making all Sabbaths a burden to observe, rather than a 'joy' as intended by the Holy Father (God). As the (likely true) story goes, the Feast of the Unleavening Bread was an annual Sabbath. The significance is 'Leavened Bread" is puffed up (by yeast, leavening), much like our "human pride". Unleavened bread would then signify "humility" and "resolve" to obey God. This act against Christ, the Son of God, was wished by the Jews to be completed before the beginning, at sundown (on Wednesday) of this annual Sabbath of humility, which was the annual Feast of the Unleavened Bread. THANKYOU for your humility in approaching this subject. |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
| 5 years ago :: Jan 04, 2008 - 10:03PM #22 | |
|
[QUOTE=Quelle;184958]THE TRUTH SEEMS TO BE: Jesus was crucified on the day of the Jewish Passover holy day, which in that year turned out to have been a Wednesday, and resurrected on the following Saturday evening, which is three days. He was then seen later on Sunday, after His grave was found empty on Sunday morning.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you Quelle. As a matter of fact, you can trace the days leading to this through the scriptures! One thing I would change that you say, it was not the Passover day, but the day of preparation, which is the day before. He had to be removed from the cross before the Holy Day (Passover). You can actually walk the last week of Christ's life through the accounts of the scripture. I have posted it here on B'net a couple times before, on the old boards. It is alot of information (and study), using the gospels and various accounts along with OT understanding of feast days, holy days, etc. I will lay some of the Preparation Day out for you. The day of Preparation was Nisan 14. (This day is the day before the Passover (See Jo 19:14). The four gospels all agree that Jesus was "laid in the sepulchre on the Preparation Day." (See Mt 27:60-62; Mk 15:42; Luke 23:54; Jo 19:31, 42). Nisan 14 actually began at sunset on Tuesday and this Nisan 14 is the day we know with some certainty our Lord was crucified. He was taken off the cross before sunset on Wednesay, which is the start of Nisan 15--Passover. This sabath was a "high Day" and therefore not a regular Saturday sabbath (See Jon19:31). Jesus rose after 3 literal 24 hour periods. This would have had the resurrection take place some time after the Saturday sabbath was complete, or Saturday evening after 6pm. Mat 28 says "in the end of the Sabbath" and this word for Sabbath is actually a plural, showing it would better read "in the end of the sabbaths." We already know more than one sabbath took place over that three day period of time, according to scripture. With these facts in place and a few others I did not mention, you can go backwards in scripture and fill in the gaps to the last week of the Lord's life. For instance, Jo 12:1 takes us to "six days before the passover" or the 9th of Nisan. Mt 26:2 & Mk 14:1 take us to the 13th day of Nisan as they both state, "After two days is the passover." Mt 28:1 says, "the first day of the week" and so it was from Saturday sunset through Sunday sunset. This fixes the days of the week for us. As for the "three days and three nights" Jesus spoke of: Three days is a Hebrew idiom for any part of three days, but when you add "and three nights" it ceases to be an idiom and becomes a literal statement of fact. This is how we know creation took 6 literal days; God always says and the evening and the morning were the first day, etc. Since the Hebrew day began at sunset, the "day' was reckoned from one sunset to another, i.e. the 12 hours of the day (Jo 11:9). So when a "day and evening" were cited, it represented a 24 hour day. There are many more examples in scripture to look at as well. Jesus did mean for us to understand three, 24 hour days. Great study! |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
| 5 years ago :: Jan 05, 2008 - 3:32AM #23 | |
|
Matthew 28:1 states “after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week..”
This tells me after Saturday, on Sunday. The day of preparation is the day before the sabbath (Friday), which is the day he was laid to rest, as described in Mark 15:42. On this scripture quote the entire argument hinges. The chronological reckoning between John’s gospel and the synoptics presents a challenge, especially in relation to the Last Supper (John 13:2). While the synoptics portray the disciples and Christ eating on the Thursday evening (Nisan 14) and Jesus being crucified on Friday, John’s gospel states that the Jews did not enter into the Praetorium “lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover" (John 18:28). So, the disciples had eaten the Passover on Thursday evening, but the Jews had not. In fact, John 19:14 states that Jesus’ trial and crucifixion were on the day of preparation for the Passover and not after the eating of the Passover, so that with the trial and crucifixion on Friday, Christ was actually sacrificed at the same time the Passover lambs were being slain. The question is “Why did the disciples eat the Passover meal on Thursday?” The answer lies in a difference among the Jews in the way Israel and Judah kept time. From Josephus, the Mishna, and other ancient Jewish sources we learn that the Jews in the northern half calculated days from sunrise to sunrise. That area included the region of Galilee, where Jesus and all the disciples, except Judas, had grown up. Apparently most, if not all, of the Pharisees used that system of reckoning. Yet Jews in the southern half, which centered in Jerusalem, calculated days from sunset to sunset. Because all the Priests necessarily lived in or near Jerusalem, as did most of the Sadducees, those groups followed the southern scheme. Variations like these and others within the Hebrew reckoning of time undoubtedly caused confusion, then as well as now, (lol). Furthermore, the difference between being buried an exact period of three 24hr days, and Christ’s own prophecy of rising on the third day is contradictory. In Mttw: 26:61, 17:23, Christ places the emphasis of rising on the third day. Within the period of three 24hr days, Christ rising would automatically cut the time down from exactly three days, to a slight bit less than, unless, of course, one wishes interpret them as rising at "exactly" the second of the end of the third day? This would have to indicate he rose from between 6 and 9 on the third day, yet nowhere is this purported, especially since Mark 15:42 records that Christ had died the Friday before that Sunday. I take Christ's words of tearing down the temple and rising on the third day at face value, with reference to Jonah as just that: a simulated reference to the three day period, whether described as three days, or three days and three nights. But we are free to interpret how we deem eh, though the “Tuesday” thing came completely out of left field for me, and have found no evidence to show Nisan 14 fell on such a day. "High Day" is Holy Convocation (Ex.12:16) and the feast of unleavened bread (Lev. 23:6,7): or the 15th day; both were sometimes mentioned in place of the Passover. All my resources are cited from the King James only, though I dare say, the research is quite inspiring! |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
| 5 years ago :: Jan 05, 2008 - 11:36AM #24 | |
|
Hi AK,
Thanks for your interesting lengthy discourse on this matter. Who is to say your explanation has any substance or not(?), but it shows you MIGHT BE well studied on the matter. I am trying to be gracious to you (and your profile reveals a bit about how your mind might work). I don't want to argue with you. I DON'T WISH TO CITE A RECOGNIZED EXPERT (NOR WILL I DO SO), BUT THERE IS ONE THAT DEVOTED HIS LIFE TO THIS MATTER AFTER HIS WIFE HAD A DREAM ABOUT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. With all due respect, expecting anyone to accept "three days and three nights" as anything considerably less than three 24 hour periods is addressed by Matthew 23:24 (mentioned here earlier): "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!" These were Christ's words for the supposed learned leaders of the prevailing religion of the Hebrew people in His day. |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
| 5 years ago :: Jan 05, 2008 - 11:51AM #25 | |
|
Correction on my previous message (post):
"(and your profile reveals a bit about how your mind might work)." This was applicable to another here with a similar screen name; not AK. |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
| 5 years ago :: Jan 05, 2008 - 9:31PM #26 | |
|
[QUOTE=AKwinters;189042]Matthew 28:1 states “after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week..”
This tells me after Saturday, on Sunday. The day of preparation is the day before the sabbath (Friday), which is the day he was laid to rest, as described in Mark 15:42. On this scripture quote the entire argument hinges. [/quote] Hi AK, how are you? yes, I agree with your days of Saturday (the day of one Sabbath and the first day of the week following te Sabbath is obviously Sunday! And just looking at that scripture one would say the preparation day then would have been Friday. But there is so much more! Iknow you have looked at some others and perhaps I can give a little more info on what I have already said or in reference to what you have said. [QUOTE=AKwinters;189042] The chronological reckoning between John’s gospel and the synoptics presents a challenge, especially in relation to the Last Supper (John 13:2). While the synoptics portray the disciples and Christ eating on the Thursday evening (Nisan 14) and Jesus being crucified on Friday, John’s gospel states that the Jews did not enter into the Praetorium “lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover" (John 18:28). So, the disciples had eaten the Passover on Thursday evening, but the Jews had not. In fact, John 19:14 states that Jesus’ trial and crucifixion were on the day of preparation for the Passover and not after the eating of the Passover, so that with the trial and crucifixion on Friday, Christ was actually sacrificed at the same time the Passover lambs were being slain. The question is “Why did the disciples eat the Passover meal on Thursday?” [/quote] Regarding the meal that Jesus ate with the disciples, this was not the passover lamb and they were not eating it early. It could not have been for a couple reasons. 1) Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. This verse shows Jesus sat to eat the meal. But we read of the eating of the passover lamb, Exo 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. They were to eat the passover lamb standing up! Additionally, there was no lamb at the last supper save the Lord Jesus Christ! 2)Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, ... This was preceded by Jo 13:1-30. It was the passover feast, but not the passover lamb, which followed it - see vs 2. Also, let's look at some of Jo 13: Joh 13:1-4 KJV Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. (2) And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; (3) Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; (4) He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 3)The lamb is killed on the Day of preparation (14th), and a few hours later... is eaten on the first day of the feast of unleavened bread or the High Sabbath (15th). [QUOTE=AKwinters;189042]Furthermore, the difference between being buried an exact period of three 24hr days, and Christ’s own prophecy of rising on the third day is contradictory. In Mttw: 26:61, 17:23, Christ places the emphasis of rising on the third day. Within the period of three 24hr days, Christ rising would automatically cut the time down from exactly three days, to a slight bit less than, unless, of course, one wishes interpret them as rising at "exactly" the second of the end of the third day? This would have to indicate he rose from between 6 and 9 on the third day, yet nowhere is this purported, especially since Mark 15:42 records that Christ had died the Friday before that Sunday.[/quote] I do not follow you on the rising time of Christ. For one, if he rose at the end of theSabbath it would be Saturday night, and they did not discover this until Sunday. Secondly, He would have been buried before 6pm as it happened before the Sabbath began. Thus at the exact end of the Sabbath, He would have already been risen. But according to a Friday burial and a Sunday resurrection, it would make no sense either way. Where does it say in Mark 15:42 that Jesus died on Friday before Sunday? The verse says, "Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, " This passage gives nothing for the day, only the date of the week. We must look at other scriptures that tell us the day. This can be done by the following: We know Mark 11 is referring to Palm Sunday, which started Saturday sunset to sunset Sunday. This was Nisan 11 and four days before passover as I will show. We follow to vs 12, which says, "and on the morrow..." and so we can mark this day as Nisan 12 (Sunday eve to Monday eve). Moving on to verse 20, "And in the morning,..." we have arrived at Nisan 13 (Monday sunset to Tuesday sunset). Further clarifcation of the date is found in 14:1 which says, "after two days is the passover", thus confirming our date of Nisan 13--we already confirmed the day of the week by starting on Palm Sunday. Next, was Nisan 14 and we have looked at the verses for the day of preparation as well as Nisan 15 so I won't repeat any. And this day of the week would have been Tuesday sunset to Wednesday sunset. We know the Lord was crucified on this day, during the daytime of Wednesay at noon and gave up the ghost at 3pm, just like the sacrificial lamb slaughtered. Then He was taken off the cross sometime before the High Sabbath which began at 6pm, our Wednesday eve to Thursday. Of course three days in the grave take us to some time after 6pm Saturday, which was the first day of the week, Sunday (our Saturday evening to Sunday evening--Mat 28:1). I have more verses from other gospels that show this same thing. Also, as stated before we can follow the last week of Christ's life through the gospels as well. Grace to you & great study! |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
| 5 years ago :: Jan 05, 2008 - 11:30PM #27 | |
|
I have a question. What does the 3 day/3night or the 3 day explanation of Christ's burial and resurrection have to do with the true church or false prophet? A false prophet would not teach of Christ's vicarious death, burial and resurrection! We are all believers whichever of the two we believe, we just must believe in Christ's death, burial and resurrection in our place, for our sins.
Surely you are not implying that someone who believes differently than a 3 day/night burial is a false prophet, are you? |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
| 5 years ago :: Jan 05, 2008 - 11:42PM #28 | |
|
Hi Ms. UBG,
I like your explanations, and have found these to coincide: 3 Days and 3 Nights Preparation Contradiction What an endearing way to show Christ how much we love him by spending our energies to learn more about him, his life and his work! Thank You Friend! |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
| 5 years ago :: Jan 06, 2008 - 11:35AM #29 | |
|
[QUOTE=AKwinters;191260]Hi Ms. UBG,
I like your explanations, and have found these to coincide: 3 Days and 3 Nights Preparation Contradiction What an endearing way to show Christ how much we love him by spending our energies to learn more about him, his life and his work! Thank You Friend![/QUOTE] Hi AK: You said: "What an endearing way to show Christ how much we love him by spending our energies to learn more about him, his life and his work!" I agree that allowing the "Power of God" (the Holy Spirit) to lead us into a further personal understanding of the mysteries of our Christian faith is a noble pursuit. Difficulties only arise if you wish to overthrow the authority of Christ and replace God's intentions with your own. |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
| 5 years ago :: Jan 06, 2008 - 12:22PM #30 | |
|
[QUOTE=Unitedbygrace;191242]I have a question. What does the 3 day/3night or the 3 day explanation of Christ's burial and resurrection have to do with the true church or false prophet? A false prophet would not teach of Christ's vicarious death, burial and resurrection! We are all believers whichever of the two we believe, we just must believe in Christ's death, burial and resurrection in our place, for our sins.
Surely you are not implying that someone who believes differently than a 3 day/night burial is a false prophet, are you?[/QUOTE] "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, attributes the activity of the Spirit to some other power. The present activity of God can be attested only through the actions of the Spirit. If these are not recognized, then there is no means by which God can reach man. The one who will not accept the work of the Spirit has made it impossible for himself to recognize the word and the work of God. Only he can be forgiven who confesses that he has something to be forgiven." (The Jerome Biblical Commentary on Matthew 12:31) quoted by Apishapa on another thread. |
|
|
Quick Reply
|
|
Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
No registered users viewing