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Switch to Forum Live View The "True Church" and the "False Prophet"
6 years ago  ::  Jan 08, 2008 - 7:14PM #51
Xristocharis
Posts: 5,051
For the record, the original Protestants (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Melancthon, et al) all held the Nicene Creed as authoritative Christian teaching. The Protestant confessions produced in the 16th and 17th centuries (e.g. the Book of Concord and the Westminster Confession) include the ancient Christian confessions such as the Apostles' and Nicene Creed.

Later Protestants, such as Baptists and Methodists, whether or not including the ecumenical confessions as authoritative or not, still held the basic premises of the ecumenical confessions as a given.

The term "Evangelical" originally just meant "Protestant". Modern Evangelicalism grew out from the Fundamentalist Movement of the early 20th century (the Trinity was one of the "Fundamentals" per the eponymously named Fundamentalism); and inasmuch as modern Evangelicalism is, essentially, Neo-Evangelicalism the Trinity was simply an assumed premise.

Whether or not an Evangelical regards the Nicene Creed as authoritative or not (some do, some don't) what is nearly universally true is that Evangelicals--of all kinds--accept the Doctrine of the Trinity as true. This is part of, not only our Protestant/Evangelical theological heritage, but part of our Christian theological heritage.

-Jon
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Hélder Câmara
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2008 - 4:17AM #52
egosintrick
Posts: 6
the Hebrew 'day' started at sundown and ended at sundown. Christ was crucified just before the Sabbath, we know that.
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Matt 27:57NIV As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.
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so it must have been Friday afternoon. Day one, Friday. Then He was buried and put in the tomb on Fryday. sundown came and with it the Sabbath- Saturday. Day two, Saturday.
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62The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. 63"Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' 64So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."

65"Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how." 66So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.
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so Jesus spent the Sabbath in the tomb, guarded by soldiers

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1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."
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Jesus rose the day after the Sabbath- Sunday. The third day, Sunday. Jesus was in the tomb on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, thus 3 'days'. it's really quite simple, and to try to pose the argument that it wasn't 72 literal hours is foolish and, i think a bit dishonest. Would you claim that i was a liar for saying i worked three days this week because i came to work for eight hours on monday, tuesday, and wednesday? I didn't actually work three entire days right...
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2008 - 11:27AM #53
Quelle
Posts: 334
[QUOTE=egosintrick;199863]the Hebrew 'day' started at sundown and ended at sundown. Christ was crucified just before the Sabbath, we know that.
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Matt 27:57NIV As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.
---

so it must have been Friday afternoon. Day one, Friday. Then He was buried and put in the tomb on Fryday. sundown came and with it the Sabbath- Saturday. Day two, Saturday.
---

62The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. 63"Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' 64So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."

65"Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how." 66So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.
---

so Jesus spent the Sabbath in the tomb, guarded by soldiers

---
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."
---

Jesus rose the day after the Sabbath- Sunday. The third day, Sunday. Jesus was in the tomb on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, thus 3 'days'. it's really quite simple, and to try to pose the argument that it wasn't 72 literal hours is foolish and, i think a bit dishonest. Would you claim that i was a liar for saying i worked three days this week because i came to work for eight hours on monday, tuesday, and wednesday? I didn't actually work three entire days right...[/QUOTE]
For example, considering "No one knows the hour or the day." I would again suggest we are not supposed to know everything. Part of the "grace of God" (and understanding) is that God reveals Himself to those who seek Him in "spirit" and in "truth", IMO.

The above response presumes a weekly Sabbath is referred to, rather than a far more significant annual Sabbath. There is reason to believe, in my opinion, that some of the mysteries of the Christian faith were only meant to be understood at later times; this recent '72 hour' resurrection revelation possibly being a "grace of God" of these current times. Such a discovery, might have the purpose of further emphasizing that God and Jesus Christ retain the ultimate authority, and they will not be predisposed by others.

That is to say, considering John 10:1, entering the "kingdom of God" involves Jesus Christ, and there is no other way to legitimately enter according to scripture.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 8:12PM #54
Corrigan37
Posts: 7,313
UnitedBy Grace,

[QUOTE]In His grip,
[/QUOTE]

Steve Brown? :)
~Carrie~
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 8:26PM #55
Unitedbygrace
Posts: 189
[QUOTE=Corrigan37;213961]UnitedBy Grace,



Steve Brown? :)[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I'm not followin' you?  I'm not very familiar wth Steve Brown.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 8:32PM #56
Corrigan37
Posts: 7,313
oh ok.. i was reading the threads and your ending in his grip..

He is a bible teacher.. he is calvinist.. i am not BUT i do enjoy listening to him once in a while he makes me smile with his humor..

He always end his letters with "in his grip"..

Nevermind :))
~Carrie~
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2008 - 8:41PM #57
Unitedbygrace
Posts: 189
[QUOTE=Corrigan37;214009]oh ok.. i was reading the threads and your ending in his grip..

He is a bible teacher.. he is calvinist.. i am not BUT i do enjoy listening to him once in a while he makes me smile with his humor..

He always end his letters with "in his grip"..

Nevermind :))[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info!  I have never listened to him before.  I am not a Calvanist either--but do enjoy some Bible teachers that may be!

Grace to you.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2008 - 9:26AM #58
Kazuya
Posts: 58
Quelle theres something your missing

Matthew 12:40 If you read it properly Jesus says "AS JONAH WAS 3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS IN THE WHALES BELLY". And Jonah didn't die when the Whale swallowed him he was ALIVE and inside the Whales belly JONAH WAS ALIVE for 3 days and 3 nights. JONAH didn't die. But according to the NT Jesus DIED for 1 and a half days and nights then rose alive. But Jonah was ALIVE for 3 days and 3 nights.

And we know the english meaning for WAS, anybody who doesn't they can go www.dictionary.com

Plus when Jesus says 3 days and 3 nights he means 3 days and 3 nights. He doesn't mean 3 days only becuase he included 3 nights in what he said.
If you want to know Quelle how the days are measured in Hebrew you can ask the Jews in this website in the Jewish Thread.

And this is a Prophecy (2 Prophecies) by Jesus according to Matthew which Jesus failed to fulfill.

Quelle I believe after reading your posts that you are open minded I'llleave 2 links to another site which you will find helpful to find out more about Jesus

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/messianic-jews/
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Prophet-Jesus/
PEACE
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 19, 2008 - 6:57AM #59
prechier
Posts: 4
[QUOTE=Quelle;185333]The reason I believe your argument lacks merit is: Christ cited this "three days and three nights in the earth" as the ONLY SIGN to be given that He was the MESSIAH, to disbelieving opponents, that He admonished as an EVIL GENERATION. Any confusion, in my mind, concerning this PRECISE TIMING serves only to benefit further false Christs, that He (Christ) also said would come later.

Textbooks have been written concerning this subject; and the timing of all the events of the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension into heaven, etc. coincide precisely with the timing of the previous symbolic sacrificial rituals of the Hebrew religion of that day. (These coincidences of timing were exact and not symbolic.)

("At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes."  Matthew 11:25)[/QUOTE]

Greetings in Jesus Holy name.

I have read with interest the contributions to this discussion and would like to offer my thoughts.

In accordance with the type, Jesus as the Antitypical Passover Lamb was marked for death on the day He entered Jerusalem in triumph to the acclamation of the crowds. this day being Nisan 10.

Four days later on Nisan 14 Jesus was taken, tried and crucified - this being the same day that He celebrated the passover meal with His disciples.

These things happening on the same day are possible because the Jewish day was reckoned as beginning at 6pm on the Thursday evening and ending at 6pm on Friday evening when the Sabbath began.

Jesus was considered to be figuratively dead from the moment He was arrested (6pm thursday to 6pm Friday -day 1).

The next day the Sabbath (6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday - Day 2).

on Sunday  (6pm Saturday to 6pm Sunday - day 3) in the morning the women found the tomb empty and our Lord risen.

The Jews when calculating periods of time counted parts of days etc as being whole ones. Ergo the record of our Lord being in the grave 3 days and nights as described in Scripture is accurate.

God bless all
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2008 - 12:24PM #60
Pilgrimer
Posts: 32
[QUOTE=Quelle;184958]Conventional Christian Church teaching about the gospel account of the crucifixtion and resurrection of Christ alleges that Christ died on a Friday night and His grave was found empty early Sunday morning... hardly three days (72 hours) following Friday night. That would be more like 36 hours, or one and one-half days.

This might seem a trivial inaccuracy, except that Christ (Himself) when asked to provide a sign that He was the Messiah, said this: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:40) In that, Christ said this was the ONLY SIGN that would be given, that He (Christ) was the Messiah, MISREPRESENTING the timing of the crucifixtion and resurrection is a rather BLATENT (almost inexcusable) ERROR.

THE TRUTH SEEMS TO BE: Jesus was crucified on the day of the Jewish Passover holy day, which in that year turned out to have been a Wednesday, and resurrected on the following Saturday evening, which is three days. He was then seen later on Sunday, after His grave was found empty on Sunday morning.[/QUOTE]

I believe the reason you are having difficulty is that you are assuming that the three days and three nights only refer to the period of time that Jesus was entombed. Twelve different times Jesus taught about what events would occur during these three days and three nights, and in every single instance he taught that his betrayal, arrest, trial, rejection, mocking, scourging, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection would all occur during these three days and three nights. His rising on the third day did not refer to the third day from his entombment, but the third day from his betrayal which began all these events that culminated in his resurrection the third day.

“From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.” Matthew 16:21

Notice in the above passage that Jesus did not simply say he would be buried and would rise again the third day after his burial. He said he would suffer many things at the hands of the elders and would be killed and would be raised the third day after suffering these things, which included his betrayal by the elders. These events began with his betrayal and abuse at the hands of the elders and culminated in his resurrection three days later.

“And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again.” Matthew 17.22

Again, notice that Jesus did not say that he would be buried and on the third day would be raised again, he said he would be betrayed and killed and the third day would be raised again. He was betrayed to be killed on Thursday night and three days later was raised from the dead.

“Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.” Matthew 20:18

Again, Jesus clearly taught that he would be raised the third day after he was betrayed, condemned by the Jews, delivered to the Romans, mocked, scourged, and crucified and he would rise again the third day after these events began.

Night 1: Thursday night was betrayed and condemned by Jewish elders.
Day 1: Friday was delivered to Romans, mocked, scourged, crucified.
Night 2: Friday night was in the tomb.
Day 2: Saturday was in the tomb.
Night 3: Saturday night was in the tomb.
Day 3: Sunday rose from the dead on the third day after he suffered all these things.

See also Mark 8:31, 9;31, 10:34, Luke 18:31, 24:7.

And one of the clearest passages that demonstrate that this is what the disciples understood the three days and three nights to refer to is what Cleopas said to the resurrected Jesus on the road to Emmaus:

“Art thou a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? . . . Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.” Luke 24.20

Notice that they specifically state on Sunday after Jesus’ resurrection that “today is the third day since these things were done,” and “these things” includes Jesus being betrayed and condemned by the Jewish elders, which occurred on Thursday night, three days and three nights before Jesus' resurrection.

And again, the Scriptures are clear that the three days and nights included the suffering of Jesus before his death and burial, which suffering took place over the Thursday night and Friday before he was buried on Friday evening.

“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day.” Luke 24.46

Notice that the passage includes Jesus' suffering in the three days.

And finally, another testimony from Scripture which includes Jesus’ being crucified on Friday in the three days:

“And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly.” Acts 10:39

Thus I believe you are not correctly understanding what the three days and three nights refer to, that it did not simply refer to the period of time in which Jesus would be in the tomb, but that it would be three days and three nights in which Jesus would suffer “all these things,” including his betrayal, trial and condemation by the Jewish elders, being delivered to the Romans, mocked, scourged, crucified, killed and then buried, and on the third day after suffering “all these things” (not just being buried) but after suffering "all these things" he rose from the dead.

Perhaps the error of limiting the three days and three nights to the period of time in which Jesus was entombed rather than the period of time in which Jesus taught he would suffer all these things is compelling testimony to why one should never base their understanding on a single verse of Scripture.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
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