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Locked: Woman Priests
6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 11:36AM #31
kollo
Posts: 4,064
[QUOTE=Verdugo;107491]Sure.

1.  Re: your claim that female leadership in the Church simply followed the cultural development of feminism, I refer you to (among other sources) Salvation in the Slums: Evangelical Social Work 1865-1920 by Norris Magnuson, which details the proactive influence of evangelicals on social movements, including the women's movement. 


Can you quote it with regard to the large number of women who reached positions of authority over men at that time, please.

2.  Re: your claim that the early church suffered problems due to "unsuitable" and "dangerous" female leadership, I would refer you to the Pauline epistles, and Paul's constant affirmation of female leaders, including Priscilla, Lydia, Phoebe, and Junia.


Priscilla updated a non-Christian; Lydia is not mentioned as having any authority in the church; Phoebe was a helper, who did not necessarily teach.

'Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen.' Ro 16:7 NASB

3.  Re: your claim that such "unsuitable" female leadership somehow "invokes" homosexuality, it's impossible to disprove a negative, so I would ask you to provide one iota of scientific evidence to support such a ludicrous claim.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps the word 'ludicrous' can be justified.

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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 12:27PM #32
Verdugo
Posts: 5,258
[QUOTE=kollo;107651]Can you quote it with regard to the large number of women who reached positions of authority over men at that time, please.[/QUOTE]

I don't have it in front of me at present.  I think the fact that I have provided a scholarly source, one you are welcome to check out of the library and read for yourself, whereas you have made truth claim after truth claim w/o providing a single reference to support them, speaks for itself.


[QUOTE=kollo;107651]Priscilla updated a non-Christian; Lydia is not mentioned as having any authority in the church; Phoebe was a helper, who did not necessarily teach.  'Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen.' Ro 16:7 NASB.[/QUOTE]

Apollos was hardly a non-Christian, he was a preacher/teacher/leader in the church!  Lydia is described as a leader of the church.  And I find it quite interesting that you chose to selectively cut off Rom 16:7 in order to avoid the more salient part of the quote which describes Junias not just as a teacher, but as an apostle.  That's called eisegesis, btw, fyi.


[QUOTE=kollo;107651]Perhaps the word 'ludicrous' can be justified.[/QUOTE]

There is no justification for spreading untruth, especially when such spurious claims can cause harm to the lives of others.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 12:51PM #33
kollo
Posts: 4,064
[QUOTE=Verdugo;107769]I don't have it in front of me at present.


Then start posting when it is in front of you, not before. Have some basic respect for others.

Apollos was hardly a non-Christian, he was a preacher/teacher/leader in the church!


Not so.

Lydia is described as a leader of the church.


Not so.

Quite preposterous.

And I find it quite interesting that you chose to selectively cut off Rom 16:7 in order to avoid the more salient part of the quote which describes Junias not just as a teacher, but as an apostle.  That's called eisegesis, btw, fyi.


That's called behaviour that gets this poster removed in very short order from even a secular debate, to say nothing of a church.

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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 8:43AM #34
tawonda
Posts: 4,367
If the above sentence is not a prophecy, it is a false teaching.

I have no idea what fundamentalists consider to be "prophecy"  -- but in the rest of Christendom a prophet is someone who communicates God's truth to the people -- who comments on what is, points to the consequences of continuing in those behaviors and describes what will happen if those behaviors change. That pattern is found over and over again in the OT books of the Prophets. Now, another term for communicating information, at least for the rest of us, is teaching.

Again, I"m sure that's some egregious breach of fundamentalist understanding...but since I'm not a fundamentalist that's not of great concern to me.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 9:06AM #35
kollo
Posts: 4,064
[QUOTE=Whisperingal;107314]Kollo--hi. You say--

"It swung from treating women as chattels to flattering them, and giving them influence that they are unsuited to, and this is probably more dangerous, spiritually, at least."

Could you explain what you mean by the phrases I've bolded


Women are unsuited to positions of spiritual authority over men. They are less aware of the schemes of men (and the devil) than men are, they are more easily prone to masculine sexual influence. They often argue in an illogical fashion. These weaknesses make for danger at personal level, because flattery encourages pride and unrealism, and at the corporate level, because this phenomenon makes the church even more prone to heresy and moral decline, which are now even more common than when women clerics were a rarity. Women in positions of leadership over men also promotes homosexuality among the young, the result of conscious policy rather than accident, imv.

Women are being taken for a ride by clever and unscrupulous men, and at their own long-term expense, as well as that of society as a whole, and as well as the church.

--and what your source is for thinking in that way?


Life experience- though the Bible largely supports my view, if that is of any significance.

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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 9:12AM #36
kollo
Posts: 4,064
[QUOTE=tawonda;107357]If the above sentence is not a prophecy, it is a false teaching.


I have no idea what fundamentalists consider to be "prophecy"  -- but in the rest of Christendom a prophet is someone who communicates God's truth to the people


So prophecy and teaching are synonyms, now. It's easy to win arguments if the dictionary is re-designed according to one's requirements.

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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 9:54AM #37
Verdugo
Posts: 5,258
[QUOTE=kollo;107280]The exception that proves the rule- the concept was around, but was adopted at exactly the time that Western economies found it useful. In other words, it does not appear to be the churches who have produced this great growth of women in official positions, it is outsiders. That should be of great concern. The church exists to be a light set on a hill, the salt of the earth, not merely a reflection of the world's values.[/QUOTE]

That makes nice rhetoric but the historical facts simply don't support it.  The reality is that the women's movement began in the church and spread to the wider society-- not the other way around.  The fact that the church sadly all too often reflected the patriarchy of the larger society does not change the historical facts.


It seems to me that Western society never gets a proper balance. It swung from treating women as chattels to flattering them, and giving them influence that they are unsuited to, and this is probably more dangerous, spiritually, at least. It is also corruptive of society, and imv tends to induce homosexuality, another modern growth phenomenon.

What exactly is this "dangerous" and "unsuited" influence the church gave women?  And how exactly did this "dangerous" influence "induce" homosexuality?  (Which, btw, is NOT a "modern growth" phenomenon).  I'd be very curious about what sort of cause-and-effect you can draw there.

Read a bit of history.  Seriously.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 9:58AM #38
Verdugo
Posts: 5,258
Sorry, kollo, I see that in a later post you attempted to answer those questions-- although only succeeded in putting your foot in your mouth.

Your "life experience" is not supported by my "life experience"-- nor any research.  History does not support your reading of the facts.  Nor does the NT.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 10:01AM #39
Verdugo
Posts: 5,258
[QUOTE=kollo;107389]So prophecy and teaching are synonyms, now. It's easy to win arguments if the dictionary is re-designed according to one's requirements.[/QUOTE]

Nope, no need to redesign anything.  This has always been the common understanding of prophesy among mainstream biblical scholarship, both liberal and conservative.  And since the original texts were not written in English, the English definition is really not significant-- what's significant is the Greek and Hebrew lexicons, which support tawonda's definition.

Although it appears you're not too big on all that high-falutin' book learnin'.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2007 - 10:07AM #40
kollo
Posts: 4,064
[QUOTE=Verdugo;107461]Sorry, kollo, I see that in a later post you attempted to answer those questions-- although only succeeded in putting your foot in your mouth.

Your "life experience" is not supported by my "life experience"-- nor any research.  History does not support your reading of the facts.  Nor does the NT.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you would quote one or the other?
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