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Switch to Forum Live View Is Jesus God or the Son of God?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 9:19AM #1
duaneg
Posts: 37
For years I was taught that Jesus is God, but I have always wondered since childhood how he can be God if God is his Father.

In John 3:16 he is called the only begotten Son of God, so it is clear to me that he is not an adopted son or an allegorical son. He seems to have began as a person within the womb of Mary his mother and so he has her DNA.

I was also taught that God is a Trinity consisting of three equal persons in one God Head. In light of the account of Jesus' birth I do not see how this is possible, since he was begotten of the Holy Spirit and power of the Highest. If he is the son of the Trinity wouldn't this make Jesus his own Father?

Is anyone interested in discussing this?
(1 Tim 2:5 KJV)  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 8:29PM #2
Blü
Posts: 23,980

duane


This is the wrong forum for discussing theological aspects of Jesus. 


But as for whether Jesus is a god, the evidence of the NT tends to show that he wasn't - statements attributed to Jesus contain many express denials, while to people other than Jesus are attributed claims that he's a god.


For example, Luke 18:18 has Jesus say, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone" and John 20:17 has him say "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."


Contrasted with that, in John 20:28 Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (though Jesus doesn't reply Yup).  And various assertions of Jesus' divinity are found in NT pseudepigraphs purportedly by Paul.


Likewise in Mark, Yahweh adopts the human Jesus (on the Jewish model of Psalm 2:7) on his baptism, while in Matthew and Luke Yahweh divinely inseminates Mary in accordance with Greek tradition.


If you trace the development of the Jesus idea, he starts out as a human prophet, is adopted by Yahweh  (Mark), no, no, he's conceived of Yahweh (Matthew, Luke), no, he's divine, a god, no, he's the only god (Matthew 28:18, certainly a later addition, but making the point.)  Thus after a century Christianity finds itself with two gods, Jesus and Yahweh, and this leads to the suggest of the Trinity (Theophilos of Antioch, ~ 180 CE) which is developed into the modern doctrine by the 4th century.  (Unfortunately the doctrine is internally inconsistent, an irreconcilably illogical nonsense, so it goes by the politer name of a 'mystery'.)


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 7:15AM #3
duaneg
Posts: 37

I do not seehow this could be the wrong place to discuss this since this thread is about the historical Jesus. Either he was/is God or he is the begotten Son of God.


I realize the statements in the Bible can be confusing but I think it is mostly because of preconceived ideas and poor translations. One Person, Yahweh, is our God and Father, and only he is that. The other person, Jesus (Yahshua) is his begotten Son.

(1 Tim 2:5 KJV)  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 7:32AM #4
duaneg
Posts: 37

Actually that quote is not from the Bible. Yes, he was born of the virgin Mary, but as the Son of the one and only God, as he himself later said. He is, as you say, the "Lord Jesus Christ." He is not our God.

(1 Tim 2:5 KJV)  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 9:20AM #5
Ken
Posts: 33,860

Jun 17, 2012 -- 7:15AM, duaneg wrote:


I do not see how this could be the wrong place to discuss this since this thread is about the historical Jesus. Either he was/is God or he is the begotten Son of God.



He might be neither.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 8:54PM #6
Blü
Posts: 23,980

duane


do not see how this could be the wrong place to discuss this since this thread is about the historical Jesus. Either he was/is God or he is the begotten Son of God.


To fit your question into historical mode, you'd need to rephrase it as a question about what meaning the NT text yields to objective and informed enquiry, not as a statement about beliefs.


Approaching Jesus from the historical point of view, it's proper to consider whether on the examinable evidence he's a fictional character, a real person in history to whom a heap of supernatural stories are attached in the Robin Hood manner, whether supernatural claims in the bible are objectively more credible than supernatural claims for Enlil, Osiris, Dionusos, Mithra - and so on.


But as I said, I think your view predominates in the NT. Even so there are some texts there going the other way, for the reasons I mentioned.



I realize the statements in the Bible can be confusing but I think it is mostly because of preconceived ideas and poor translations.


I try not to have preconceived ideas.  I also find reputable translations like the RSV (and NRSV) are done with high quality scholarship, even though some questions inevitably take the enquirer back to the original Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:16AM #7
duaneg
Posts: 37

Thanks very much for your opinion. I think the Bible is one of the most historical books in existence. To discuss the historical Jesus, it is the main place to start. Some do not agree, and so they can start wherever they like.

(1 Tim 2:5 KJV)  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 10:32AM #8
Blü
Posts: 23,980

duane


I think the Bible is one of the most historical books in existence.


I don't think you'll find many reputable scholars of history agreeing with you.  I've already mentioned the problems of magic as an example - magic isn't found in our reality and no examples of magic are taken to be historical, but rather to illuminate the views and reporting styles of a particular era.


But indeed you're entitled to your own view.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 10:40PM #9
teilhard
Posts: 48,270



"God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, Eternally Begotten of The Father ... Begotten, not made; One in Being with The Father ..."


" ... Born of The Virgin Mary ..."


The Christian Understandings of and about The Lord Jesus of Nazareth are BOTH markedly plainly "Historical" AND at the same Time deeply Theological ... such that it is virtually impossible to separate them ...


Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:19AM, duaneg wrote:

For years I was taught that Jesus is God, but I have always wondered since childhood how he can be God if God is his Father.

In John 3:16 he is called the only begotten Son of God, so it is clear to me that he is not an adopted son or an allegorical son. He seems to have began as a person within the womb of Mary his mother and so he has her DNA.

I was also taught that God is a Trinity consisting of three equal persons in one God Head. In light of the account of Jesus' birth I do not see how this is possible, since he was begotten of the Holy Spirit and power of the Highest. If he is the son of the Trinity wouldn't this make Jesus his own Father?

Is anyone interested in discussing this?










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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 6:40PM #10
duaneg
Posts: 37

Jun 18, 2012 -- 10:40PM, teilhard wrote:




"God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, Eternally Begotten of The Father ... Begotten, not made; One in Being with The Father ..."


" ... Born of The Virgin Mary ..."


The Christian Understandings of and about The Lord Jesus of Nazareth are BOTH markedly plainly "Historical" AND at the same Time deeply Theological ... such that it is virtually impossible to separate them ...


______


The phrase that you quoted is not in the Bible and cannot be true becaue it contradicts the Bible. 


You are righ though in that this is so firmly entrenched in some minds that it cannot be separated... without a miracle.

(1 Tim 2:5 KJV)  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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