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Switch to Forum Live View When Jesus said: "Before Abraham was I am" was he claiming to be God?
3 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2012 - 2:57PM #1
Craig_w_dressler
Posts: 86
While speaking to the religious leaders of his day, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am."  The words I am are one of the names of God that God gave to Moses.  The religious leaders of his day knew Jesus was claiming to be God, and for this they almost stoned him to death.  This scripture, as do many others, points to the truth of the Trinity which all true Christian denominations believe.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2012 - 12:06AM #2
Namchuck
Posts: 11,353

Jan 24, 2012 -- 2:57PM, Craig_w_dressler wrote:

While speaking to the religious leaders of his day, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am."  The words I am are one of the names of God that God gave to Moses.  The religious leaders of his day knew Jesus was claiming to be God, and for this they almost stoned him to death.  This scripture, as do many others, points to the truth of the Trinity which all true Christian denominations believe.




Even if Jesus actually existed, nobody really knows just what he said and didn't say. The New Testament Gospels are our only source and it is well-known that they are consistently unreliable.


And your assertion that "all true Christian denominations" believe in the Trinity wipes out most Christian believers of the early first centuries of Christianity.


I don't know where you would get the authority to make such an audaciously elitist claim!?

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 31, 2012 - 6:49PM #3
Joe68
Posts: 289

Jan 24, 2012 -- 2:57PM, Craig_w_dressler wrote:

While speaking to the religious leaders of his day, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am."  The words I am are one of the names of God that God gave to Moses.  The religious leaders of his day knew Jesus was claiming to be God, and for this they almost stoned him to death.  This scripture, as do many others, points to the truth of the Trinity which all true Christian denominations believe.


So, true

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 1:36AM #4
Namchuck
Posts: 11,353

Jan 31, 2012 -- 6:49PM, Joe68 wrote:


Jan 24, 2012 -- 2:57PM, Craig_w_dressler wrote:

While speaking to the religious leaders of his day, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am."  The words I am are one of the names of God that God gave to Moses.  The religious leaders of his day knew Jesus was claiming to be God, and for this they almost stoned him to death.  This scripture, as do many others, points to the truth of the Trinity which all true Christian denominations believe.


So, true




It's not necessarily true at all, and you know it, or you should.


Trinitarianism is an invented belief no different from hordes of other invented and unjustified beliefs entertained by credulous people.


It is simply not ethical to claim that a belief like that is "So, true" when you really don't know if it is true or not.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 11:52AM #5
Joe68
Posts: 289

Feb 1, 2012 -- 1:36AM, Namchuck wrote:


Jan 31, 2012 -- 6:49PM, Joe68 wrote:


Jan 24, 2012 -- 2:57PM, Craig_w_dressler wrote:

While speaking to the religious leaders of his day, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am."  The words I am are one of the names of God that God gave to Moses.  The religious leaders of his day knew Jesus was claiming to be God, and for this they almost stoned him to death.  This scripture, as do many others, points to the truth of the Trinity which all true Christian denominations believe.


So, true




It's not necessarily true at all, and you know it, or you should.


Trinitarianism is an invented belief no different from hordes of other invented and unjustified beliefs entertained by credulous people.


It is simply not ethical to claim that a belief like that is "So, true" when you really don't know if it is true or not.





Thanks for your opinion.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 12:16PM #6
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,603

When Jesus said: "Before Abraham was I am", was he claiming to be God? (John 8:58)


YES!
1. This is one of the clearest cases of Jesus of Nazareth claiming DEITY...the main cause that the religious leaders plotted to have him killed.
2. There are other places in Scripture where Jesus the God-Man claims to be part of the TRI-UNE GOD.
3. AND there are many places in the Bible wherein Jesus the Christ, The Messiah claims unity with GOD the FATHER.


Although these three important concepts are "inter-related", these doctrines are clearer when separated.


DEITY:


I quote the book, chapter, and verse in which Jesus said (or implied / claimed) "I am God" (or part of the TRI-UNE God)...


Here's some....Read them all IN CONTEXT


John 1 (John 1:1, 3, 10, 14 read together)
John 4:25-26
John 8:58
John 10:33
John 14:9
John 15:26
And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord (Master) and my God (Divine). John 20:28...No denial!


Characteristics of Jesus as the God-Man:


Jesus forgives sins.
.....Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5


Jesus overcame death:
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.(body decay)


Jesus is Messiah , God incarnate
.....The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us ALL things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26
.....But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2


Jesus healed diseases (and infirmities)
.....Jesus healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16


Jesus raises the dead.
The Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21


Jesus performed all types of miracles to inspire BELIEF.
John 4: 48... “Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”


Jesus resurrected.


Jesus ascended.


Jesus will come again.


Oh ...bye the bye...Why are the Gospels RELIABLE, even though written later?


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:


John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."...PERFECT RECALL!


i.e.,....Reliable "witnesses" and historians, superintended and inspired by God the Holy Spirit.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 1:30AM #7
Namchuck
Posts: 11,353

Feb 1, 2012 -- 11:52AM, Joe68 wrote:


Feb 1, 2012 -- 1:36AM, Namchuck wrote:


Jan 31, 2012 -- 6:49PM, Joe68 wrote:


Jan 24, 2012 -- 2:57PM, Craig_w_dressler wrote:

While speaking to the religious leaders of his day, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am."  The words I am are one of the names of God that God gave to Moses.  The religious leaders of his day knew Jesus was claiming to be God, and for this they almost stoned him to death.  This scripture, as do many others, points to the truth of the Trinity which all true Christian denominations believe.


So, true




It's not necessarily true at all, and you know it, or you should.


Trinitarianism is an invented belief no different from hordes of other invented and unjustified beliefs entertained by credulous people.


It is simply not ethical to claim that a belief like that is "So, true" when you really don't know if it is true or not.





Thanks for your opinion.




It's a very accurate opinion, too.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 1:38AM #8
Namchuck
Posts: 11,353

Feb 1, 2012 -- 12:16PM, Rgurley4 wrote:


When Jesus said: "Before Abraham was I am", was he claiming to be God? (John 8:58)


YES!


That's if he said anything of the kind. Given that the our only source documents were written well after Jesus' supposed existence, and given the Gospel of John's admitted propagandistic motivation, it is merely a conviction of faith.




1. This is one of the clearest cases of Jesus of Nazareth claiming DEITY...the main cause that the religious leaders plotted to have him killed.


Well, we don't really know that either. There is just as much circumstantial evidence that Jesus may have been executed for political reasons and that the religious elements of the story were added later.





2. There are other places in Scripture where Jesus the God-Man claims to be part of the TRI-UNE GOD.


Again, written much later, and likely interpolated in support of the much later trinitarian doctrine.




3. AND there are many places in the Bible wherein Jesus the Christ, The Messiah claims unity with GOD the FATHER.


And just as many verses where he disclaims such.


Although these three important concepts are "inter-related", these doctrines are clearer when separated.


DEITY:


I quote the book, chapter, and verse in which Jesus said (or implied / claimed) "I am God" (or part of the TRI-UNE God)...


Here's some....Read them all IN CONTEXT


John 1 (John 1:1, 3, 10, 14 read together)
John 4:25-26
John 8:58
John 10:33
John 14:9
John 15:26
And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord (Master) and my God (Divine). John 20:28...No denial!


And all from the Gospel of John, a book composed, according to the best scholarship, when the trinitarian doctrine was being hashed out.


Characteristics of Jesus as the God-Man:


Jesus forgives sins.
.....Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5


Jesus overcame death:
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.(body decay)


Jesus is Messiah , God incarnate
.....The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us ALL things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26
.....But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2


Jesus healed diseases (and infirmities)
.....Jesus healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16


Jesus raises the dead.
The Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21


Jesus performed all types of miracles to inspire BELIEF.
John 4: 48... “Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”


Jesus resurrected.


Jesus ascended.


Jesus will come again.


Oh ...bye the bye...Why are the Gospels RELIABLE, even though written later?


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:


John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."...PERFECT RECALL!


i.e.,....Reliable "witnesses" and historians, superintended and inspired by God the Holy Spirit.




Extremely unreliable "witnesses" who could hardly agree on the simplest matter.

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2 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2012 - 2:02AM #9
Namchuck
Posts: 11,353

Could you give me an example of that 'truth' you claim to have tried out that is supported by compelling empirical and objective evidence?


Could you explain to me, for instance, why God, a hypothetically infinite being, could in any way be inconvenienced by the behaviour of finite beings that he would assign infinite consequences to their acts?

Moderated by world citizen on Mar 08, 2012 - 09:56PM
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2012 - 11:22AM #10
Joe68
Posts: 289

Could you give me an example of that 'truth' you claim to have tried out that is supported by compelling empirical and objective evidence?


It is more reasonable than not to think of Jesus as a historical person. One needs only to read The Historical Jesus by Habermas to understand that.  


Could you explain to me, for instance, why God, a hypothetically infinite being, could in any way be inconvenienced by the behaviour of finite beings that he would assign infinite consequences to their acts?


God is perfectly good and loving and has provided us with all we need; the air we breath, the food we eat, the brain we think with. He has even gone to the extent of experiencing our life on Earth (as God the Son, Jesus Christ) and suffering and dying - for our wrongs against him - so that he can offer us forgiveness and eternal happiness. God deserves our devotion, lotality and obedience to the utmost. When we sin against him, we deny him what is his infinite due, and we spit in the face of the person who has loved and provided us the most.


And what is sin against God? We think of morality as an abstraction: when we break a law, we may or may not be causing harm to someone, but we are still doing wrong - we are going against what is moral and just. Since God is the embodiment of justice and morality, what this really means is that we've sinned against God. God isn't physically or materially injured by our sin, but since he is righteous, he is offended when we do wrong, just as we ourselves are offended when we hear news reports of someone being murdered or an innocent person having been wrongfully imprisoned. Thus God is not exacting revenge on people by punishing them, or punishing them based on the suffering their actions caused to other humans, but punishing the inherent wrongness of their actions - which include rebelling against God and rejecting his perfect standards of right and wrong.


Hell is not infinite punishment since there are degrees of punishment but it is still unending punishment.  It  is generally true that we have finite abilities and finite lives and can only do a finite amount of wrong but this is not necessarily true in regards with our relationship with God. Our souls are not temporally finite but continue to exist after death, so we are not completely finite. Sin negatively affects our relationship with God by distancing us from him, and if we never repent and follow God, that negative effect continues as long as both we and God exist, i.e. forever. Since the sinner and the results of the sin continue forever, it makes sense that the sinner's punishment also continues forever.

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