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Switch to Forum Live View the writings attributed to saul of tarsus are illicit and need to be disregarded by the faithful-
3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 1:11AM #51
Namchuck
Posts: 11,798

Jan 12, 2012 -- 5:53PM, iamachildofhis wrote:


Jan 8, 2012 -- 10:22PM, Namchuck wrote:



Namchuck: It is interesting to note, and fully substantiated in the Gospels, that Jesus's relative benevolence toward the things of everyday life went hand in hand with praise for the practice of gentleness. Two sentences (Mark 7:15 and 10:7) show Jesus unopposed to marriage and indifferent to the ascetic ideal, and you'll search in vain for any rigid prescriptions concerning the body, sexuality, or sensuality.


On the other hand, Saul/Paul transforms Jesus's silence on these questions into a deafening din thundering out hatred for the body, of women, and of life.


So don't, iama, try to convince me that there is a consistent picture presented in your vaunted perception of the Bible. This, and a thousand other examples one could give, identifies that this is certainly not the case.


iama:  What is the basis / reason / rationality, for your rejection of Christianity?


Namchuck: You will find such reasons given within my posts.


Among them, that Christianity - like most other religions - is grounded in baroque assumptions for which there isn't a scrap of evidence. There is nothing meritocratic about its beliefs at all.



iama:  You seem to prefer to make hint-type-statements, instead of speaking directly concerning your chosen stance leading to your unbelief point of view, currently, held.


Truth is evidenced.


The "merit" belongs, only, to our Creator-God.


iama: Would you call Jesus silent, in the following:



Mat 5:28     
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."


Namchuck: No, not at all, but there is no indication in this quote of anything akin to the body, life, and women-hating ravings of the hysteric Saul/Paul.



iama: The practice of adultery was the charge of the men who brought "the woman taken in adultery," in the following account.  Where was the man, who, presumably, was, also, "taken in adultery"? "They say unto Him, 'Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now, Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?'"


What do you gather from the context, that Jesus "with His finger wrote on the ground?"


"So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, 'He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.'"


"And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard (iama: What do you understand by this: "they which heard"? Did they hear with their ears or with their consciences?) went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."


"When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, 'Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath [did] no man concemned [condemn] thee?'


She said, 'No man, Lord.'


And Jesus said unto her, 'Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.'" John 8:10,11


Jesus Christ was interacting with His fellow Jews.  He knew and they knew what the Law of Moses stated.  Why didn't he audibly speak, but instead, chose to write upon the ground? Why did the men leave "beginning at the eldest, even unto the last"?


How is it possible that Jesus could make His statement, "Neither do I condemn the: go, and sin no more"?


You are aware, I am sure, that the New Testament describes a New Covenant which is initiated by a new blood sacrifice, that of The Lamb of God. 


The Apostle Paul was a Pharisee:


Pharisee:


1) A sect that seems to have started after the Jewish exile. In addition to OT books the Pharisees recognised in oral tradition a standard of belief and life. They sought for distinction and praise by outward observance of external rites and by outward forms of piety, and such as ceremonial washings, fastings, prayers, and alms giving; and, comparatively negligent of genuine piety, they prided themselves on their fancied good works. They held strenuously to a belief in the existence of good and evil angels, and to the expectation of a Messiah; and they cherished the hope that the dead, after a preliminary experience either of reward or of penalty in Hades, would be recalled to life by him, and be requited each according to his individual deeds. In opposition to the usurped dominion of the Herods and the rule of the Romans, they stoutly upheld the theocracy and their country's cause, and possessed great influence with the common people. According to Josephus they numbered more than 6000. They were bitter enemies of Jesus and his cause; and were in turn severely rebuked by him for their avarice, ambition, hollow reliance on outward works, and affection of piety in order to gain popularity."


You, of course, know that Saul, following in the Pharisee's, above, parameters, went about rounding up Christians and hauling them off to jail, because they were Christians.  Then, because Christ Jesus stopped him in his tracks on the way to Damascus, a trip to round up more Christians, Jesus of Nazareth's causing him to become blinded, and his subsequently becoming a Christian, himself, followed. 


It took some ~3 years in the desert of Arabia, for the new Christian, Saul, to become the useful-to-Christ Jesus, The Apostle Paul. 


Therefore, your, "the body, life, and women-hating ravings of the hysteric Saul/Paul." comment seems strange to me!


Christ Jesus never did away with The Law. Indeed, He fulfilled The Law!


The Ten Commandments are the basis of all morality, WHICH Christ Jesus condensed into the two laws of love for God and for neighbor.


The lusts of the human beings causes us to continually express immorality.


Do you think that Christ Jesus dismissed immorality of human beings?




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Bible 'truth' is not well "evidenced" at all. In fact, the contrary seems to be the case. There is hardly an incident in the Bible that enjoys any sort of evidential support. It is essentially a pious tome made up primarily of myths and legends. Myths and legends that I have always enjoyed reading, but myths and legends after all.




And my initial charge against Saul/Paul stands. Saul/Paul may have been a hysterical, fundamentalist Jew, who became an equally hysterical fundamentalist Christian, but this only tends to compound the evidence of an obvious pathology. How did he live with his neuroses? By making them the model for the world to follow, and by inflicting his neuroses on the world.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2012 - 1:24PM #52
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,795

Jan 13, 2012 -- 1:11AM, Namchuck wrote:



Namchuck: Bible 'truth' is not well "evidenced" at all. In fact, the contrary seems to be the case. There is hardly an incident in the Bible that enjoys any sort of evidential support. It is essentially a pious tome made up primarily of myths and legends. Myths and legends that I have always enjoyed reading, but myths and legends after all.



iama:  You sound like a man who has experienced some traumatic event which has soured and embittered you.


Namchuck: And my initial charge against Saul/Paul stands. Saul/Paul may have been a hysterical, fundamentalist Jew, who became an equally hysterical fundamentalist Christian, but this only tends to compound the evidence of an obvious pathology. How did he live with his neuroses? By making them the model for the world to follow, and by inflicting his neuroses on the world.



iama:  Why is it that we don't haphazardly scramble along a precipitous mountain trail with a drop off into a deep of hundreds of feet?


We, from childhood, hopefully, have learned that gravity is no respecter of persons! There are no ifs, buts, or maybes, when it comes to the physical existence of gravity, and scientists have called it the LAW OF GRAVITY.


Why is it that the LAWS OF MORALITY should be considered as anything less to be respected?


The Bible presents our Creator-God as LIGHT; "With God there is no SHADOW of turning."


Truth is always Truth; Love is always Love; Joy is always Joy; Peace is always Peace; Longsuffering is always Longsuffering; Gentleness is always Gentleness; Goodness is always Goodness; Faithfulness is always Faithfulness; Humility is always Humility; Self-control is always Self-control.



Last evening I read Charles R. Swindoll's statement regarding 1 Corinthians 13:


"How can you best respond to Paul's definition of love in 1 Corinthians 13? Tell the Lord, 'I admire these qualities.  I want them, but I can't produce them. I'm willing to change in each area, but You, Father, will have to do it through me. Help me to love as You would have me love.'"




Our Creator-God's nature and character are never going to change.  It is we, human beings, if we desire to dwell with Him, who must OF NECESSITY, become willing to change.  Light and Darkness can never exist in unity!


Do you remember what the one sin is, which must be dealt with, now that The Lamb of God has been sacrificed?


Jhn 16:8-11
"And when He (God-Holy Spirit) is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on Me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see Me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."



All sins, currently, since Calvary, have been dealt with by The Lamb of God. 


There is ONE SIN, currently, which stands between ourselves and our Creator-God.


Unbelief.


Unbelief is like the electric light switch turned OFF on the wall.


The electric light switch on the wall, turned ON enables, the POWER of the electric current to flow, producing light.


"In Him was LIFE, and the LIFE was the LIGHT of man."


The Apostle Paul stated, "For to me, to live, is CHRIST..."



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The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
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"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
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Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2012 - 3:32PM #53
Namchuck
Posts: 11,798

Jan 13, 2012 -- 1:24PM, iamachildofhis wrote:


Jan 13, 2012 -- 1:11AM, Namchuck wrote:



Namchuck: Bible 'truth' is not well "evidenced" at all. In fact, the contrary seems to be the case. There is hardly an incident in the Bible that enjoys any sort of evidential support. It is essentially a pious tome made up primarily of myths and legends. Myths and legends that I have always enjoyed reading, but myths and legends after all.



iama:  You sound like a man who has experienced some traumatic event which has soured and embittered you.


Dead wrong.


Can't say that I've experienced any real "traumatic event" and am usually considered by those who know me as a happy and contented person. Your inept and amateurish attempt at psychoanalysis has completely failed.


Namchuck: And my initial charge against Saul/Paul stands. Saul/Paul may have been a hysterical, fundamentalist Jew, who became an equally hysterical fundamentalist Christian, but this only tends to compound the evidence of an obvious pathology. How did he live with his neuroses? By making them the model for the world to follow, and by inflicting his neuroses on the world.



iama:  Why is it that we don't haphazardly scramble along a precipitous mountain trail with a drop off into a deep of hundreds of feet?


We, from childhood, hopefully, have learned that gravity is no respecter of persons! There are no ifs, buts, or maybes, when it comes to the physical existence of gravity, and scientists have called it the LAW OF GRAVITY.


Why is it that the LAWS OF MORALITY should be considered as anything less to be respected?


Our morality come from our social nature and is not given to us by some fictional God.


The astonishing thing is that many people do not hesitate to believe in a self-contradictory God and allow such belief to guide their entire life; yet, on the other hand, the same people demand highly logical and empirical standards when they make such relatively inconsequential choices as buying a car.


The Bible presents our Creator-God as LIGHT; "With God there is no SHADOW of turning."


Yet, according to one myth, he can regret creating people and commit genocide and ecocide to correct his mistakes! 


Truth is always Truth; Love is always Love; Joy is always Joy; Peace is always Peace; Longsuffering is always Longsuffering; Gentleness is always Gentleness; Goodness is always Goodness; Faithfulness is always Faithfulness; Humility is always Humility; Self-control is always Self-control.


And these things remain so.They neither require or demand that one embrace unjustified and insupportable beliefs.



Last evening I read Charles R. Swindoll's statement regarding 1 Corinthians 13:


"How can you best respond to Paul's definition of love in 1 Corinthians 13? Tell the Lord, 'I admire these qualities.  I want them, but I can't produce them. I'm willing to change in each area, but You, Father, will have to do it through me. Help me to love as You would have me love.'"




Our Creator-God's nature and character are never going to change.  It is we, human beings, if we desire to dwell with Him, who must OF NECESSITY, become willing to change.  Light and Darkness can never exist in unity!


This is not a truth that the Bible conveys. It's God is a mercurial character little diffrent from many another Oriental despot, only bigger and invisible.


Do you remember what the one sin is, which must be dealt with, now that The Lamb of God has been sacrificed?


Jhn 16:8-11
"And when He (God-Holy Spirit) is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on Me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see Me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."



All sins, currently, since Calvary, have been dealt with by The Lamb of God. 


There is ONE SIN, currently, which stands between ourselves and our Creator-God.


Unbelief.


Unbelief is like the electric light switch turned OFF on the wall.


The electric light switch on the wall, turned ON enables, the POWER of the electric current to flow, producing light.


"In Him was LIFE, and the LIFE was the LIGHT of man."


The Apostle Paul stated, "For to me, to live, is CHRIST..."



One's beliefs should always be held in proportion to the evidence. There is no evidence to sustain the Bible's obvious myths and legends.


On the other hand, Saul/Paul took the conceptual personage of Jesus, clothed him, and supplied him with ideas that served only to infect the world with his own neuroses, neuroses that included, in a long list, misogyny.



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