iama: Do you evaluate all historical documents thus wise / similarly?
Namchuck: Completely.
As all sound biblical scholarship has conceded, one would be hard-pushed to make a compelling case for an historical Jesus. The only Jesus we know is the Jesus of myth and legend.
iama: Then, also, you have "no compelling case for an historical":
- Socrates - "myth and legend"
- Plato - "myth and legend"
- Aristotle - "myth and legend"
- Emperor Augustus - "myth and legend"
- Napoleon Bonaparte - his "myth and legend" is recorded in books.
amcolph: You miss the point--as usual--which is that we only know the legendary Jesus, not the historical Jesus because it is the legendary Jesus who is portrayed in the Bible.
iama:
- Socrates - "legendary Socrates"
- Plato - "legendary Plato"
- Aristotle - "legendary Aristotle"
- Emperor Augustus - "legendary Augustus"
- Napoleon Bonaparte - "legendary Napoleon" is recorded in books.
.
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin . "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." . Justice is receiving what you deserve. Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve. Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve. .
iama: Do you evaluate all historical documents thus wise / similarly?
Namchuck: Completely.
As all sound biblical scholarship has conceded, one would be hard-pushed to make a compelling case for an historical Jesus. The only Jesus we know is the Jesus of myth and legend.
iama: Then, also, you have "no compelling case for an historical":
- Socrates - "myth and legend"
- Plato - "myth and legend"
- Aristotle - "myth and legend"
- Emperor Augustus - "myth and legend"
- Napoleon Bonaparte - his "myth and legend" is recorded in books.
amcolph: You miss the point--as usual--which is that we only know the legendary Jesus, not the historical Jesus because it is the legendary Jesus who is portrayed in the Bible.
iama:
- Socrates - "legendary Socrates"
- Plato - "legendary Plato"
- Aristotle - "legendary Aristotle"
- Emperor Augustus - "legendary Augustus"
- Napoleon Bonaparte - "legendary Napoleon" is recorded in books.
.
Are you making no distinction between "legendary" and "historical?"
Take Napoleon, for example. There is a good deal of historical material about him recorded in books, but I am not aware of any great body of Napoleonic legends, although I imagine there must be some...
This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
iama: Do you evaluate all historical documents thus wise / similarly?
Namchuck: Completely.
As all sound biblical scholarship has conceded, one would be hard-pushed to make a compelling case for an historical Jesus. The only Jesus we know is the Jesus of myth and legend.
iama: Then, also, you have "no compelling case for an historical":
- Socrates - "myth and legend"
- Plato - "myth and legend"
- Aristotle - "myth and legend"
- Emperor Augustus - "myth and legend"
- Napoleon Bonaparte - his "myth and legend" is recorded in books.
amcolph: You miss the point--as usual--which is that we only know the legendary Jesus, not the historical Jesus because it is the legendary Jesus who is portrayed in the Bible.
iama:
- Socrates - "legendary Socrates"
- Plato - "legendary Plato"
- Aristotle - "legendary Aristotle"
- Emperor Augustus - "legendary Augustus"
- Napoleon Bonaparte - "legendary Napoleon" is recorded in books.
amcolph: Are you making no distinction between "legendary" and "historical?"
Take Napoleon, for example. There is a good deal of historical material about him recorded in books, but I am not aware of any great body of Napoleonic legends, although I imagine there must be some...
iama: What is YOUR distinction between "legendary" and "historical"?
I ONLY know about the historical Christ Jesus, Who, being God-Son, entered into human history, becoming "the Second Adam," to redeem me from the effects of "the first Adam," who was, also, historical!
Matthew and Luke give us the historical genealogy of the historical Christ Jesus, because it is very important that our Savior be historical, in order to be our Savior!
Our Savior is, also, our Creator-God Who has been interacting with humans, historically, since Day 6 of The Creation week!
.
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin . "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." . Justice is receiving what you deserve. Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve. Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve. .
iama: What is YOUR distinction between "legendary" and "historical"?
I ONLY know about the historical Christ Jesus, Who, being God-Son, entered into human history, becoming "the Second Adam," to redeem me from the effects of "the first Adam," who was, also, historical!
Matthew and Luke give us the historical genealogy of the historical Christ Jesus, because it is very important that our Savior be historical, in order to be our Savior!
Our Savior is, also, our Creator-God Who has been interacting with humans, historically, since Day 6 of The Creation week!
Yes, you have confused the real Jesus of Nazareth with a character of the same name in a story.
This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
iama: What is YOUR distinction between "legendary" and "historical"?
I ONLY know about the historical Christ Jesus, Who, being God-Son, entered into human history, becoming "the Second Adam," to redeem me from the effects of "the first Adam," who was, also, historical!
Matthew and Luke give us the historical genealogy of the historical Christ Jesus, because it is very important that our Savior be historical, in order to be our Savior!
Our Savior is, also, our Creator-God Who has been interacting with humans, historically, since Day 6 of The Creation week!
amcolph: Yes, you have confused the real Jesus of Nazareth with a character of the same name in a story.
iama: How, tell us, do we live out the following, in history?
"But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
.
The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin . "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." . Justice is receiving what you deserve. Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve. Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve. .
iama: What is YOUR distinction between "legendary" and "historical"?
I ONLY know about the historical Christ Jesus, Who, being God-Son, entered into human history, becoming "the Second Adam," to redeem me from the effects of "the first Adam," who was, also, historical!
Matthew and Luke give us the historical genealogy of the historical Christ Jesus, because it is very important that our Savior be historical, in order to be our Savior!
Our Savior is, also, our Creator-God Who has been interacting with humans, historically, since Day 6 of The Creation week!
amcolph: Yes, you have confused the real Jesus of Nazareth with a character of the same name in a story.
iama: How, tell us, do we live out the following, in history?
"But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
.
What does that have to do with the subject at hand?
Do you really think that unless the Gospels are 100% accurate literal history that Jesus never existed?
This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
iama: Then, also, you have "no compelling case for an historical":
- Socrates - "myth and legend"
- Plato - "myth and legend"
- Aristotle - "myth and legend"
- Emperor Augustus - "myth and legend"
- Napoleon Bonaparte - his "myth and legend" is recorded in books.
amcolph: You miss the point--as usual--which is that we only know the legendary Jesus, not the historical Jesus because it is the legendary Jesus who is portrayed in the Bible.
iama:
- Socrates - "legendary Socrates"
- Plato - "legendary Plato"
- Aristotle - "legendary Aristotle"
- Emperor Augustus - "legendary Augustus"
- Napoleon Bonaparte - "legendary Napoleon" is recorded in books.
amcolph: Are you making no distinction between "legendary" and "historical?"
Take Napoleon, for example. There is a good deal of historical material about him recorded in books, but I am not aware of any great body of Napoleonic legends, although I imagine there must be some...
iama: What is YOUR distinction between "legendary" and "historical"?
I ONLY know about the historical Christ Jesus, Who, being God-Son, entered into human history, becoming "the Second Adam," to redeem me from the effects of "the first Adam," who was, also, historical!
Matthew and Luke give us the historical genealogy of the historical Christ Jesus, because it is very important that our Savior be historical, in order to be our Savior!
Our Savior is, also, our Creator-God Who has been interacting with humans, historically, since Day 6 of The Creation week!
.
Actually, and unlike the case for Jesus, there is some rather convincing evidence contemporary with many of the individuals in your list above that would suggest that they existed.
As I've said before, I have no trouble personally believing that there was likely a real historical character behind the mythical and legendary 'Jesus of faith' given to us in the Gospels, but if there was so, he is now entirely lost to history. The Jesus of faith in whom so many have emotionally invested is, as ancolph says, merely a made-up character in a set of inconsistent and often contradictory stories.
"Our Savior is, also, our Creator-God Who has been interacting with humans, historically, since Day 6 of the Creation Week!"
Well, firstly, you can advance no evidence whatsoever that the long-departed Jesus has been "interacting with humans, historically", and, secondly, how can you be sure that he has supposedly been doing so since "Day 6", considering that the 2 Genesis stories contradict each other regarding the sequence of creation?
Hey, I LOVE to study and discuss the book of John! In my studies, the following things have come to my attention:
1. The word is not a person but is the word of the one and only God.
2. In this one God was word and life and light.
3. God's word which is Spirit became flesh in the person of his only begotten Son, the promised Messiah.
John 1 must agree with all the OT verses that proclaim God as only one Person with no other with him who is God. The originals had no punctuation or capitalization.
My quest (if I have one) is to show the RELIABILITY and CREDIBILITY of a miraculously written, copied, translated, most studied ....collection of ancient documents.
Why should ONE believe in THE Bible?
1. as a piece of literature?... 2. as the spirit-inspired collection of many human authors?... 3. as the inerrant "Word of God"?....
LIBERAL VIEW: ...the Bible is no more special than any other book, holy or otherwise.... ...the Bible can be used and manipulated to teach whatever someone wants it to teach... ...It is my opinion that IF the Bible is/was an Almighty God's way of reaching out to mankind ... ...it is an extremely poor effort on God's part...
CONSERVATIVE VIEW: The Bible (Scripture) is the supreme authority when compared to other writings and precepts. All of the ACTUAL WORDS therein were "Spirit Inspired", and "superintended" by God. The ~40 authors and their scribes recorded these words in "original manuscripts" which were without error. Systematic study of Scripture leads one to the conclusion that it is God's supreme way of speaking to Man. The "economy" or God's methods of relating to Man changed from Old Testament times to New Testament due to the historical appearance of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Messiah, the God-Man. The Bible as a piece of literature is withhout peer, and it has been miraculously superintended, dictated, written, preserved, translated, and distributed.
MY BELIEFS: I view the Bible as the "Scarlet Thread of Redemption", beginning with the created Man, spiritually walking and talking with His TRI-UNE Creator, and ending with a resurrected Man, reunited and eternally dwelling in the New Heavens and the New Earth, made possiblle by the shed blood of the New Adam, Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, The Messiah, The God-Man.
The Old Testament is filled with prophecy and "types" of the Christ... a history of God dealing with his chosen people through Abraham - Mary/Joseph with whom He has remaining some conditional promises.
The NT is the fulillment and explanation of the OT.
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