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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2011 - 1:10AM #21
Namchuck
Posts: 11,612

Dec 11, 2011 -- 12:37AM, iamachildofhis wrote:


Dec 10, 2011 -- 10:56PM, Namchuck wrote:



Namchuck: I am, as I've repeatedly said, very familiar with the Christian myth and your beliefs about it.


Real scholarship has definitively shown that none of what you assert above is anything other than mere belief.


If the Bible was really the work of a perfect and loving God, it would be superlative in every respect to anything that could be conceived by human intellect alone. It would be accurate, concise, clear, and consistent throughout. It is abundantly obvious to anyone who has read or studied the Bible that it is very very far from any of these things. It is patently obvious that it is the work of men, and it ought to be loved as a result of this.



iama:  How is it that you are "very familiar with the Christian 'myth'?"


Raised in it, iama. It, along with the Bible, is still of abiding interest to me.


How do you define "real scholarship?" What dates are given to your, accepted, "real scholarship?"


The kind of scholarship that is soundly grounded within the meritocratic paradigm.


Millions of human beings, understanding and relying upon The Bible's truths, prior to the ""modern / liberal "scholarship" destructions, have entered into their eternal reward, as The Bible has promised.


Again, that is merely a belief. Many other religions, utterly different from yours, would claim the same.


What is "modern" / "liberal" / "enlightenment" / "scholarship" is Satan's hand at work through human instruments.


Well, then, the equally mythical 'Satan' has all the facts on his side. 


If The Bible were to be as you are requiring it to be: "accurate (which it is), concise, (which it is), clear (which it is to believers), consistent throughout (which it is), and 'SUPERLATIVE IN EVERY RESPECT TO ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CONCEIVED BY HUMAN INTELLECT ALONE,'" humans would NOT be capable of reading and understanding it!


It wouldn't matter. The very existence of a tome with all the qualities identified above would stand as evidence enough of such a deity. The Mormon's, for instance, make similar claims about the Book of Mormon, as do the Muslims in regard to the Koran.


But, of course, the Bible (like the Koran and the Book of Mormon) is not accurate, concise, or superlative in every sense, just as one would expect from purely human invention. That it is also not 'clear' is greatly testified to by the endless quarrels over interpretation - many of which have lead to violence and bloodshed - that this library of inconsistent and contradictory books has engendered within Christendom.


If you desired to give human information to an ant in an ant colony, would you speak to that ant in ENGLISH?


No. If I was an omnipotent being, it would hardly be a challenge to devise a means of communication with the ants that would clearly and compellingly bespeak an intelligence of invention beyond the capacity of any single ant or community of ants. The Bible doesn't indicate anything like this. One would have to conclude, based on the Bible itself, that it's principle God is simply an awful communicator.   


Our Creator-God has spoken to us via the incarnate Christ Jesus / the human incarnate God-Man, because He has existed, here, in this realm as a human.


Again, this is merely a belief not unlike a thousand other beliefs about incarnate heroes that abounded in the ancient world, many of them with very close parallel's with mythical figures from the Bible.



.





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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2011 - 9:29AM #22
teilhard
Posts: 51,051

I agree that the Disposition to make such Characterizations IS an a priori "Disposition," i.e., a "Mind Set" Seeking Bias Confirmation ...


Dec 11, 2011 -- 12:33AM, Namchuck wrote:


'Bull**** filter' is hardly a label, teihard. It's a reference to a disposition.


Come on, start thinking.



Dec 10, 2011 -- 11:34PM, teilhard wrote:


 ... "meaningless labels," such as, "bull**** filter set extremely low" ... ???


Dec 10, 2011 -- 2:07AM, Namchuck wrote:


Dec 8, 2011 -- 11:01PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes ... 


Those who come to The Holy Scriptures -- or ANY Sacred Texts -- with a Mind-Set World View that is Materialist, Skeptical, Atheist ... will no doubt come away ... unimpressed ...


Those who come as Open-Minded Seekers will have a DIFFERENT "take" ...




In other words, if your bull**** filter is set extremely low, you'll end up believing anything.













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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2011 - 4:29PM #23
Namchuck
Posts: 11,612

You're just blathering again, teilhard.


It doesn't take much research to discover that, on the whole, believers are less predisposed to scrutinizing their own beliefs.



Dec 11, 2011 -- 9:29AM, teilhard wrote:


I agree that the Disposition to make such Characterizations IS an a priori "Disposition," i.e., a "Mind Set" Seeking Bias Confirmation ...


Dec 11, 2011 -- 12:33AM, Namchuck wrote:


'Bull**** filter' is hardly a label, teihard. It's a reference to a disposition.


Come on, start thinking.



Dec 10, 2011 -- 11:34PM, teilhard wrote:


 ... "meaningless labels," such as, "bull**** filter set extremely low" ... ???


Dec 10, 2011 -- 2:07AM, Namchuck wrote:


Dec 8, 2011 -- 11:01PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes ... 


Those who come to The Holy Scriptures -- or ANY Sacred Texts -- with a Mind-Set World View that is Materialist, Skeptical, Atheist ... will no doubt come away ... unimpressed ...


Those who come as Open-Minded Seekers will have a DIFFERENT "take" ...




In other words, if your bull**** filter is set extremely low, you'll end up believing anything.

















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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2011 - 5:38PM #24
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,652

Dec 11, 2011 -- 1:10AM, Namchuck wrote:



iama:  How is it that you are "very familiar with the Christian 'myth'?"


Namchuck: Raised in it, iama. It, along with the Bible, is still of abiding interest to me.



iama:  Based upon your answer which follows, "meritocratic paradigm", why do you still have an "abiding interest" in The Bible? 


iama: How do you define "real scholarship?" What dates are given to your, accepted, "real scholarship?"


Namchuck: The kind of scholarship that is soundly grounded within the meritocratic paradigm.



iama: I needed to google your "meritocratic paradigm." What I found, prompted my, above, question.  You are into the degree of challenging all things, now.


iama: Millions of human beings, understanding and relying upon The Bible's truths, prior to the ""modern / liberal "scholarship" destructions, have entered into their eternal reward, as The Bible has promised.


Namchuck: Again, that is merely a belief. Many other religions, utterly different from yours, would claim the same.



iama:  They can, certainly, make their claims, but they cannot produce the results, claimed.


iama: What is "modern" / "liberal" / "enlightenment" / "scholarship" is Satan's hand at work through human instruments.


Namchuck: Well, then, the equally mythical 'Satan' has all the facts on his side.



iama: He is the master counterfeiter, and he is in his final death throes.  He knows his time is short.


iama: If The Bible were to be as you are requiring it to be: "accurate (which it is), concise, (which it is), clear (which it is to believers), consistent throughout (which it is), and 'SUPERLATIVE IN EVERY RESPECT TO ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CONCEIVED BY HUMAN INTELLECT ALONE,'" humans would NOT be capable of reading and understanding it!


Namchuck: It wouldn't matter. The very existence of a tome with all the qualities identified above would stand as evidence enough of such a deity. The Mormon's, for instance, make similar claims about the Book of Mormon, as do the Muslims in regard to the Koran.


But, of course, the Bible (like the Koran and the Book of Mormon) is not accurate, concise, or superlative in every sense, just as one would expect from purely human invention. That it is also not 'clear' is greatly testified to by the endless quarrels over interpretation - many of which have lead to violence and bloodshed - that this library of inconsistent and contradictory books has engendered within Christendom.



iama: There are supernatural evidences given in The Bible.  As a child of God - the biblical God - I recognize the errors, immediately when I read Satan's counterfeit books.  Don't forget that "quarrels" come from our human sin natures, whether inside or outside of the FAITH OF GOD - Father-Son-Holy Spirit.


I can appreciate, based upon your written compositions, that you have "scholarship" under your achievements.  The elevation of man to god-status began in The Garden of Eden!


iama: If you desired to give human information to an ant in an ant colony, would you speak to that ant in ENGLISH?


Namchuck: No. If I was an omnipotent being, it would hardly be a challenge to devise a means of communication with the ants that would clearly and compellingly bespeak an intelligence of invention beyond the capacity of any single ant or community of ants. The Bible doesn't indicate anything like this. One would have to conclude, based on the Bible itself, that it's principle God is simply an awful communicator.



iama: He has communicated through human beings to whom He gave language.  The Bible communicates our Creator-God via human recorders to other human readers.  The Ten Commandments were carved into the stone tablets by our Creator-God into the Hebrew language.  Yes. Belshazzar saw the hand writing on the wall and read but didn't comprehend the message.  Daniel was called in to interpret: 


Dan 5:24-28         
"Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.



And this [is] the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.



This [is] the interpretation of the thing:


MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians."


Our Creator-God, certainly, can, and did write, communicating with humans, but He has chosen to use human recorders to comprise The Bible.


iama: Our Creator-God has spoken to us via the incarnate Christ Jesus / the human incarnate God-Man, because He has existed, here, in this realm as a human.


Namchuck: Again, this is merely a belief not unlike a thousand other beliefs about incarnate heroes that abounded in the ancient world, many of them with very close parallel's with mythical figures from the Bible.



iama:  Do you state that the Christ Jesus' Apostle Thomas DIDN'T travel to India, and that there is a Christian region of India, today, as a result?


Do you state the Apostle Paul DIDN'T travel on his three missionary journeys in the Mediterranean region?


Do you state that Pontius Pilot DIDN'T condemn Christ Jesus to death by crucifixion?


Do you state that the Apostle John wasn't banished to the Isle of Patmos by Domitian?


Do you state that the Gospels were NOT recorded by eye witnesses of one who interviewed eye witnesses / ear witnesses?


The best counterfeiter to have existed is Satan.  He has taken the truths of The Bible and created his counterfeit religions / myths.



.

The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
.
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2011 - 6:35PM #25
Namchuck
Posts: 11,612

Dec 11, 2011 -- 5:38PM, iamachildofhis wrote:


Dec 11, 2011 -- 1:10AM, Namchuck wrote:



iama:  How is it that you are "very familiar with the Christian 'myth'?"


Namchuck: Raised in it, iama. It, along with the Bible, is still of abiding interest to me.



iama:  Based upon your answer which follows, "meritocratic paradigm", why do you still have an "abiding interest" in The Bible?


My interest in the Bible could be likened to the interest an archeologist would have in an ancient city, or that of an anthropologist in some surviving hunter-gatherer tribe.


iama: How do you define "real scholarship?" What dates are given to your, accepted, "real scholarship?"


Namchuck: The kind of scholarship that is soundly grounded within the meritocratic paradigm.



iama: I needed to google your "meritocratic paradigm." What I found, prompted my, above, question.  You are into the degree of challenging all things, now.


I shouldn't be surprised that 'meritocratic' might be something new to you.


And, because of errant grammar, I'm not sure just what your sentence - "you are into the degree of challenging all things, now" - actually means. I don't think I'm into challenging "all things" (that would certainly keep one busy) but, rather, I'm "into" exploring those issues of most concern and, even, of abiding disagreement among people.


As I have explained elsewhere, my skepticism is along the lines of what Goethe termed Thatige Skepsis, or"active doubt". The idea is that skepticism should not simply be a negative position, but one of active investigation: a true skeptic is someone who does not believe until the evidence is favorable enough, but who actively searches for such evidence before rejecting a new idea.


iama: Millions of human beings, understanding and relying upon The Bible's truths, prior to the ""modern / liberal "scholarship" destructions, have entered into their eternal reward, as The Bible has promised.


Namchuck: Again, that is merely a belief. Many other religions, utterly different from yours, would claim the same.



iama:  They can, certainly, make their claims, but they cannot produce the results, claimed.


And this is exactly what all the others share with the fundamentalist Christian, a complete absence of any compelling evidence.


iama: What is "modern" / "liberal" / "enlightenment" / "scholarship" is Satan's hand at work through human instruments.


Namchuck: Well, then, the equally mythical 'Satan' has all the facts on his side.



iama: He is the master counterfeiter, and he is in his final death throes.  He knows his time is short.


Well, yes, according to your preferred mythology.


iama: If The Bible were to be as you are requiring it to be: "accurate (which it is), concise, (which it is), clear (which it is to believers), consistent throughout (which it is), and 'SUPERLATIVE IN EVERY RESPECT TO ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CONCEIVED BY HUMAN INTELLECT ALONE,'" humans would NOT be capable of reading and understanding it!


Namchuck: It wouldn't matter. The very existence of a tome with all the qualities identified above would stand as evidence enough of such a deity. The Mormon's, for instance, make similar claims about the Book of Mormon, as do the Muslims in regard to the Koran.


But, of course, the Bible (like the Koran and the Book of Mormon) is not accurate, concise, or superlative in every sense, just as one would expect from purely human invention. That it is also not 'clear' is greatly testified to by the endless quarrels over interpretation - many of which have lead to violence and bloodshed - that this library of inconsistent and contradictory books has engendered within Christendom.



iama: There are supernatural evidences given in The Bible.  As a child of God - the biblical God - I recognize the errors, immediately when I read Satan's counterfeit books.  Don't forget that "quarrels" come from our human sin natures, whether inside or outside of the FAITH OF GOD - Father-Son-Holy Spirit.


No, there are no "supernatural evidences given in the Bible". You're simply indulging in pious hyperbole here, iama. There are supernatural claims made in the Bible, but none of them actually constitute evidence for the supernatural. 


And while I might agree that quarrels come from our human nature, "sin" is a religious concept grounded in the unjustified belief that some sort of infinite deity actually concerns him/her/itself over our little finite errings. There is simply no good evidence that such an entity even exists, and a good deal of sound evidence that it likely doesn't.


I can appreciate, based upon your written compositions, that you have "scholarship" under your achievements.  The elevation of man to god-status began in The Garden of Eden!


No, I don't think that is true at all.


Considering that the very concept of God likely came out of our own recognized limitations - mortal, finite, limited, suffering from all these constraints, haunted by the desire for completeness - human beings invent a power endowed with precisely the opposite characteristics. God is our own lack turned inside out, like the fingers of a pair of gloves.


iama: If you desired to give human information to an ant in an ant colony, would you speak to that ant in ENGLISH?


Namchuck: No. If I was an omnipotent being, it would hardly be a challenge to devise a means of communication with the ants that would clearly and compellingly bespeak an intelligence of invention beyond the capacity of any single ant or community of ants. The Bible doesn't indicate anything like this. One would have to conclude, based on the Bible itself, that it's principle God is simply an awful communicator.



iama: He has communicated through human beings to whom He gave language.  The Bible communicates our Creator-God via human recorders to other human readers.  The Ten Commandments were carved into the stone tablets by our Creator-God into the Hebrew language.  Yes. Belshazzar saw the hand writing on the wall and read but didn't comprehend the message.  Daniel was called in to interpret: 


Man clearly wasn't 'given' language. It evolved. The evidence for this is utterly overwhelming.


The rest of what you say here in this paragraph is, again, just a rehearsal of myth and legend.


Dan 5:24-28         
"Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.



And this [is] the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.



This [is] the interpretation of the thing:


MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians."


Our Creator-God, certainly, can, and did write, communicating with humans, but He has chosen to use human recorders to comprise The Bible.


iama: Our Creator-God has spoken to us via the incarnate Christ Jesus / the human incarnate God-Man, because He has existed, here, in this realm as a human.


Namchuck: Again, this is merely a belief not unlike a thousand other beliefs about god's taling and incarnate heroes that abounded in the ancient world, many of them with very close parallel's with mythical figures from the Bible.



iama:  Do you state that the Christ Jesus' Apostle Thomas DIDN'T travel to India, and that there is a Christian region of India, today, as a result?


I don't know if Thomas travelled to india or not. Likely some Christian missionaries eventually did, which would explain that Christian region of India you speak of. But this no more speaks to the authenticity of Christianity than finding an Islamic region in China would bespeak the truth of that particular religion. 


Do you state the Apostle Paul DIDN'T travel on his three missionary journeys in the Mediterranean region?


Well, what if he did? He was an anally retentive individual if ever there was one. 


Do you state that Pontius Pilot DIDN'T condemn Christ Jesus to death by crucifixion?


There is no compelling evidence for that.


Do you state that the Apostle John wasn't banished to the Isle of Patmos by Domitian?


According to ancient Christian tradition he was, but one has to be skeptical about religious tradition.


Do you state that the Gospels were NOT recorded by eye witnesses of one who interviewed eye witnesses / ear witnesses?


Again, there is no compelling evidence that this is the case. In fact, given the sheer number of inconsistencies and contradictions given by the so-called "eye" and "ear witnesses", one wonders if anything real happened to witness at all. 


The best counterfeiter to have existed is Satan.  He has taken the truths of The Bible and created his counterfeit religions / myths.


You certainly give the mythical figure of Satan a more impressive profile than you do his supposed immortal enemy, God. Both, though, are likely fictions devised by people given to constructing fables in order to avoid reality. And there are still too many people inclined to embrace them.



.





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3 years ago  ::  Dec 11, 2011 - 9:28PM #26
teilhard
Posts: 51,051

I agree that, in my Experience, Skeptical-Material-ist "believers are less predisposed to scrutinizing their own beliefs ..."


Dec 11, 2011 -- 4:29PM, Namchuck wrote:


You're just blathering again, teilhard.


It doesn't take much research to discover that, on the whole, believers are less predisposed to scrutinizing their own beliefs.



Dec 11, 2011 -- 9:29AM, teilhard wrote:


I agree that the Disposition to make such Characterizations IS an a priori "Disposition," i.e., a "Mind Set" Seeking Bias Confirmation ...


Dec 11, 2011 -- 12:33AM, Namchuck wrote:


'Bull**** filter' is hardly a label, teihard. It's a reference to a disposition.


Come on, start thinking.



Dec 10, 2011 -- 11:34PM, teilhard wrote:


 ... "meaningless labels," such as, "bull**** filter set extremely low" ... ???


Dec 10, 2011 -- 2:07AM, Namchuck wrote:


Dec 8, 2011 -- 11:01PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes ... 


Those who come to The Holy Scriptures -- or ANY Sacred Texts -- with a Mind-Set World View that is Materialist, Skeptical, Atheist ... will no doubt come away ... unimpressed ...


Those who come as Open-Minded Seekers will have a DIFFERENT "take" ...




In other words, if your bull**** filter is set extremely low, you'll end up believing anything.





















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3 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 12:21AM #27
Namchuck
Posts: 11,612

Yes, but your posts would indicate that your experience is substantially limited.


I have had considerable dealings with both materialists and skeptics and have found that, on the whole, they are very much predisposed to scrutinizing their own beliefs.


This is certainly not the case with the believers that I know.


Dec 11, 2011 -- 9:28PM, teilhard wrote:


I agree that, in my Experience, Skeptical-Material-ist "believers are less predisposed to scrutinizing their own beliefs ..."


Dec 11, 2011 -- 4:29PM, Namchuck wrote:


You're just blathering again, teilhard.


It doesn't take much research to discover that, on the whole, believers are less predisposed to scrutinizing their own beliefs.



Dec 11, 2011 -- 9:29AM, teilhard wrote:


I agree that the Disposition to make such Characterizations IS an a priori "Disposition," i.e., a "Mind Set" Seeking Bias Confirmation ...


Dec 11, 2011 -- 12:33AM, Namchuck wrote:


'Bull**** filter' is hardly a label, teihard. It's a reference to a disposition.


Come on, start thinking.



Dec 10, 2011 -- 11:34PM, teilhard wrote:


 ... "meaningless labels," such as, "bull**** filter set extremely low" ... ???


Dec 10, 2011 -- 2:07AM, Namchuck wrote:


Dec 8, 2011 -- 11:01PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes ... 


Those who come to The Holy Scriptures -- or ANY Sacred Texts -- with a Mind-Set World View that is Materialist, Skeptical, Atheist ... will no doubt come away ... unimpressed ...


Those who come as Open-Minded Seekers will have a DIFFERENT "take" ...




In other words, if your bull**** filter is set extremely low, you'll end up believing anything.

























Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 12:21AM #28
iamachildofhis
Posts: 10,652

Dec 11, 2011 -- 6:35PM, Namchuck wrote:



iama:  How is it that you are "very familiar with the Christian 'myth'?"


Namchuck: Raised in it, iama. It, along with the Bible, is still of abiding interest to me.


iama:  Based upon your answer which follows, "meritocratic paradigm", why do you still have an "abiding interest" in The Bible?


Namchuck: My interest in the Bible could be likened to the interest an archeologist would have in an ancient city, or that of an anthropologist in some surviving hunter-gatherer tribe.




iama: Archaeologists and antropologists are interested in the reality history which they are dealing with.  I hold The Bible as human history, but I didn't understand that you did.


iama: How do you define "real scholarship?" What dates are given to your, accepted, "real scholarship?"


Namchuck: The kind of scholarship that is soundly grounded within the meritocratic paradigm.


iama: I needed to google your "meritocratic paradigm." What I found, prompted my, above, question.  You are into the degree of challenging all things, now.


Namchuck: I shouldn't be surprised that 'meritocratic' might be something new to you.


And, because of errant grammar, I'm not sure just what your sentence - "you are into the degree of challenging all things, now" - actually means. I don't think I'm into challenging "all things" (that would certainly keep one busy) but, rather, I'm "into" exploring those issues of most concern and, even, of abiding disagreement among people.


As I have explained elsewhere, my skepticism is along the lines of what Goethe termed Thatige Skepsis, or"active doubt". The idea is that skepticism should not simply be a negative position, but one of active investigation: a true skeptic is someone who does not believe until the evidence is favorable enough, but who actively searches for such evidence before rejecting a new idea.



iama:  This came from my Google search:


"So, step one - doubt everything you have been told about religion and find as many faults and flaws as you can. Step two - doubt everything you have been told about conspiracy theories and find as many faults and flaws as you can. Step three - doubt everything you have been told about science and find as many faults as flaws as you can. Step four - doubt everything you have been told about philosophy and find as many faults and flaws as you can. Step five - now you are ready to open your mind to the truth."


iama: Millions of human beings, understanding and relying upon The Bible's truths, prior to the ""modern / liberal "scholarship" destructions, have entered into their eternal reward, as The Bible has promised.


Namchuck: Again, that is merely a belief. Many other religions, utterly different from yours, would claim the same.


iama:  They can, certainly, make their claims, but they cannot produce the results, claimed.


Namchuck: And this is exactly what all the others share with the fundamentalist Christian, a complete absence of any compelling evidence.



iama:  The "compelling evidence" for me, is that I have been born from above by God-Holy Spirit power.  My human life's existence has been forever changed.  I am a "new creature in Christ Jesus." I live within the evidence; He indwells me. 


iama: What is "modern" / "liberal" / "enlightenment" / "scholarship" is Satan's hand at work through human instruments.


Namchuck: Well, then, the equally mythical 'Satan' has all the facts on his side.


iama: He is the master counterfeiter, and he is in his final death throes.  He knows his time is short.


Namchuck: Well, yes, according to your preferred mythology.



iama:  I am existing in a reality present redeemed relationship with my Creator-God / my Savior.  He is my food and drink / The Bread of Life and The Water of Life.  There is no "mythology" regarding my existence "in Christ Jesus." The enemy / my enemy is Satan.


iama: If The Bible were to be as you are requiring it to be: "accurate (which it is), concise, (which it is), clear (which it is to believers), consistent throughout (which it is), and 'SUPERLATIVE IN EVERY RESPECT TO ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CONCEIVED BY HUMAN INTELLECT ALONE,'" humans would NOT be capable of reading and understanding it!


Namchuck: It wouldn't matter. The very existence of a tome with all the qualities identified above would stand as evidence enough of such a deity. The Mormon's, for instance, make similar claims about the Book of Mormon, as do the Muslims in regard to the Koran.


But, of course, the Bible (like the Koran and the Book of Mormon) is not accurate, concise, or superlative in every sense, just as one would expect from purely human invention. That it is also not 'clear' is greatly testified to by the endless quarrels over interpretation - many of which have lead to violence and bloodshed - that this library of inconsistent and contradictory books has engendered within Christendom.


iama: There are supernatural evidences given in The Bible.  As a child of God - the biblical God - I recognize the errors, immediately when I read Satan's counterfeit books.  Don't forget that "quarrels" come from our human sin natures, whether inside or outside of the FAITH OF GOD - Father-Son-Holy Spirit.


Namchuck: No, there are no "supernatural evidences given in the Bible". You're simply indulging in pious hyperbole here, iama. There are supernatural claims made in the Bible, but none of them actually constitute evidence for the supernatural. 


And while I might agree that quarrels come from our human nature, "sin" is a religious concept grounded in the unjustified belief that some sort of infinite deity actually concerns him/her/itself over our little finite errings. There is simply no good evidence that such an entity even exists, and a good deal of sound evidence that it likely doesn't.



iama: Not so!  My Savior walked the dusty paths in Israel ~2,000 years ago.  The Gospels record from the point of view of His disciples Matthew, Mark (Peter), Luke (Mary, interviews with eyewitnesses), and John.  Just because you choose to not believe their recordings, doesn't make them what you claim them to be.  There is a spiritual dimension and it belongs to our supernatural Creator-God's realm.  We, humans, are spirit beings, having been created spirit-soul-body.


iama: I can appreciate, based upon your written compositions, that you have "scholarship" under your achievements.  The elevation of man to god-status began in The Garden of Eden!


Namchuck: No, I don't think that is true at all.


Considering that the very concept of God likely came out of our own recognized limitations - mortal, finite, limited, suffering from all these constraints, haunted by the desire for completeness - human beings invent a power endowed with precisely the opposite characteristics. God is our own lack turned inside out, like the fingers of a pair of gloves.



iama: That's you quoting your mentors!  Our Creator-God walked in The Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve!  Our Creator-God has always been known.  As you state, above, all humans have within themselves a "haunted by desire for completeness."  Someone else stated, "God has placed a God-shaped vacuum within us, and we are restless until we find Him." Human beings can ONLY be fulfilled by our Creator-God completing us by His indwelling Holy Spirit.  We, humans, designed by our Creator-God "in His / OUR / Their image" seek to fill that void by alcohol, education, drugs, friends, sex, work, etc.  We are empty until He fills us up with Himself.


Satan tempted Eve with "you shall be as gods," and that is what is being sought by this drive for a NWO.


Gen 3:5           
"For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."


iama: If you desired to give human information to an ant in an ant colony, would you speak to that ant in ENGLISH?


Namchuck: No. If I was an omnipotent being, it would hardly be a challenge to devise a means of communication with the ants that would clearly and compellingly bespeak an intelligence of invention beyond the capacity of any single ant or community of ants. The Bible doesn't indicate anything like this. One would have to conclude, based on the Bible itself, that it's principle God is simply an awful communicator.


iama: He has communicated through human beings to whom He gave language.  The Bible communicates our Creator-God via human recorders to other human readers.  The Ten Commandments were carved into the stone tablets by our Creator-God into the Hebrew language.  Yes. Belshazzar saw the hand writing on the wall and read but didn't comprehend the message.  Daniel was called in to interpret: 


Namchuck: Man clearly wasn't 'given' language. It evolved. The evidence for this is utterly overwhelming.


The rest of what you say here in this paragraph is, again, just a rehearsal of myth and legend.



iama: Not so!  Language was a part of Adam and Eve right from the beginning.  The Tower of Babel was where our Creator-God confused their language and forced the 16 grandsons of Noah to migrate away.


iama:


Dan 5:24-28         
"Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.



And this [is] the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.



This [is] the interpretation of the thing:


MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians."


Our Creator-God, certainly, can, and did write, communicating with humans, but He has chosen to use human recorders to comprise The Bible.


iama: Our Creator-God has spoken to us via the incarnate Christ Jesus / the human incarnate God-Man, because He has existed, here, in this realm as a human.


Namchuck: Again, this is merely a belief not unlike a thousand other beliefs about god's taling and incarnate heroes that abounded in the ancient world, many of them with very close parallel's with mythical figures from the Bible.


iama:  Do you state that the Christ Jesus' Apostle Thomas DIDN'T travel to India, and that there is a Christian region of India, today, as a result?


Namchuck: I don't know if Thomas travelled to india or not. Likely some Christian missionaries eventually did, which would explain that Christian region of India you speak of. But this no more speaks to the authenticity of Christianity than finding an Islamic region in China would bespeak the truth of that particular religion.



iama: Certainly, he did.  I have spoken with a man from India who left that part of India, and he confirmed the above.


iama: Do you state the Apostle Paul DIDN'T travel on his three missionary journeys in the Mediterranean region?


Namchuck: Well, what if he did? He was an anally retentive individual if ever there was one.



iama: He was specifically chosen by Christ Jesus to accomplish all that he accomplished as a Christian missionary and recorder of New Testament books.


iama: Do you state that Pontius Pilot DIDN'T condemn Christ Jesus to death by crucifixion?


Namchuck: There is no compelling evidence for that.



iama: There are secular recordings stating so.


iama: Do you state that the Apostle John wasn't banished to the Isle of Patmos by Domitian?


Namchuck: According to ancient Christian tradition he was, but one has to be skeptical about religious tradition.



iama: There are Christian writings stating so.


iama: Do you state that the Gospels were NOT recorded by eye witnesses of one who interviewed eye witnesses / ear witnesses?


Namchuck: Again, there is no compelling evidence that this is the case. In fact, given the sheer number of inconsistencies and contradictions given by the so-called "eye" and "ear witnesses", one wonders if anything real happened to witness at all.



iama:  There are NO "COMPELLING EVIDENCES" of "inconsistencies and contradictions" if you read correctly, and with understanding of The Bible as a whole.


iama: The best counterfeiter to have existed is Satan.  He has taken the truths of The Bible and created his counterfeit religions / myths.


Namchuck: You certainly give the mythical figure of Satan a more impressive profile than you do his supposed immortal enemy, God. Both, though, are likely fictions devised by people given to constructing fables in order to avoid reality. And there are still too many people inclined to embrace them.



iama:  Our Creator-God and His enemy, Satan, are not "mythical;" they are both to be believed and dealt with!!!



.

The wonder of Christmas is that the God Who dwelt among us, now, can dwell within us. - Roy Lessin
.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
.
Justice is receiving what you deserve.
Mercy is NOT receiving what you deserve.
Grace is receiving what you DO NOT deserve.
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 12:57AM #29
Namchuck
Posts: 11,612

Dec 12, 2011 -- 12:21AM, iamachildofhis wrote:


Dec 11, 2011 -- 6:35PM, Namchuck wrote:



iama:  How is it that you are "very familiar with the Christian 'myth'?"


Namchuck: Raised in it, iama. It, along with the Bible, is still of abiding interest to me.


iama:  Based upon your answer which follows, "meritocratic paradigm", why do you still have an "abiding interest" in The Bible?


Namchuck: My interest in the Bible could be likened to the interest an archeologist would have in an ancient city, or that of an anthropologist in some surviving hunter-gatherer tribe.




iama: Archaeologists and antropologists are interested in the reality history which they are dealing with.  I hold The Bible as human history, but I didn't understand that you did.


The Bible is very much human history in the sense that it is the product of fallible human beings.


iama: How do you define "real scholarship?" What dates are given to your, accepted, "real scholarship?"


Namchuck: The kind of scholarship that is soundly grounded within the meritocratic paradigm.


iama: I needed to google your "meritocratic paradigm." What I found, prompted my, above, question.  You are into the degree of challenging all things, now.


Namchuck: I shouldn't be surprised that 'meritocratic' might be something new to you.


And, because of errant grammar, I'm not sure just what your sentence - "you are into the degree of challenging all things, now" - actually means. I don't think I'm into challenging "all things" (that would certainly keep one busy) but, rather, I'm "into" exploring those issues of most concern and, even, of abiding disagreement among people.


As I have explained elsewhere, my skepticism is along the lines of what Goethe termed Thatige Skepsis, or"active doubt". The idea is that skepticism should not simply be a negative position, but one of active investigation: a true skeptic is someone who does not believe until the evidence is favorable enough, but who actively searches for such evidence before rejecting a new idea.



iama:  This came from my Google search:


"So, step one - doubt everything you have been told about religion and find as many faults and flaws as you can. Step two - doubt everything you have been told about conspiracy theories and find as many faults and flaws as you can. Step three - doubt everything you have been told about science and find as many faults as flaws as you can. Step four - doubt everything you have been told about philosophy and find as many faults and flaws as you can. Step five - now you are ready to open your mind to the truth."


Haha...well, that neither represents the methods involved in the paradigm of meritocratic rational inquiry nor the kind of skepticism that I practice (the nature of which I previously explained to you).


iama: Millions of human beings, understanding and relying upon The Bible's truths, prior to the ""modern / liberal "scholarship" destructions, have entered into their eternal reward, as The Bible has promised.


Namchuck: Again, that is merely a belief. Many other religions, utterly different from yours, would claim the same.


iama:  They can, certainly, make their claims, but they cannot produce the results, claimed.


Namchuck: And this is exactly what all the others share with the fundamentalist Christian, a complete absence of any compelling evidence.



iama:  The "compelling evidence" for me, is that I have been born from above by God-Holy Spirit power.  My human life's existence has been forever changed.  I am a "new creature in Christ Jesus." I live within the evidence; He indwells me.


Yes, iama, but as I've previously said, I have heard the exact same testimony from believers who hold, not only different, but contradictory beliefs from yours. The only thing one learns from this is that some people are predisposed to holding extreme beliefs where the subject of the belief is entirely incidental.  


iama: What is "modern" / "liberal" / "enlightenment" / "scholarship" is Satan's hand at work through human instruments.


Namchuck: Well, then, the equally mythical 'Satan' has all the facts on his side.


iama: He is the master counterfeiter, and he is in his final death throes.  He knows his time is short.


Namchuck: Well, yes, according to your preferred mythology.



iama:  I am existing in a reality present redeemed relationship with my Creator-God / my Savior.  He is my food and drink / The Bread of Life and The Water of Life.  There is no "mythology" regarding my existence "in Christ Jesus." The enemy / my enemy is Satan.


You are entitled to your beliefs, iama, but they are merely beliefs after all.


iama: If The Bible were to be as you are requiring it to be: "accurate (which it is), concise, (which it is), clear (which it is to believers), consistent throughout (which it is), and 'SUPERLATIVE IN EVERY RESPECT TO ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CONCEIVED BY HUMAN INTELLECT ALONE,'" humans would NOT be capable of reading and understanding it!


Namchuck: It wouldn't matter. The very existence of a tome with all the qualities identified above would stand as evidence enough of such a deity. The Mormon's, for instance, make similar claims about the Book of Mormon, as do the Muslims in regard to the Koran.


But, of course, the Bible (like the Koran and the Book of Mormon) is not accurate, concise, or superlative in every sense, just as one would expect from purely human invention. That it is also not 'clear' is greatly testified to by the endless quarrels over interpretation - many of which have lead to violence and bloodshed - that this library of inconsistent and contradictory books has engendered within Christendom.


iama: There are supernatural evidences given in The Bible.  As a child of God - the biblical God - I recognize the errors, immediately when I read Satan's counterfeit books.  Don't forget that "quarrels" come from our human sin natures, whether inside or outside of the FAITH OF GOD - Father-Son-Holy Spirit.


Namchuck: No, there are no "supernatural evidences given in the Bible". You're simply indulging in pious hyperbole here, iama. There are supernatural claims made in the Bible, but none of them actually constitute evidence for the supernatural. 


And while I might agree that quarrels come from our human nature, "sin" is a religious concept grounded in the unjustified belief that some sort of infinite deity actually concerns him/her/itself over our little finite errings. There is simply no good evidence that such an entity even exists, and a good deal of sound evidence that it likely doesn't.



iama: Not so!  My Savior walked the dusty paths in Israel ~2,000 years ago.


There is no compelling evidence for that belief-claim.


  The Gospels record from the point of view of His disciples Matthew, Mark (Peter), Luke (Mary, interviews with eyewitnesses), and John.


Much of that so-called 'testimony' came much later and its contradictory and inconsistent nature would alert any reasonable person to the probability of contrivance. 


  Just because you choose to not believe their recordings, doesn't make them what you claim them to be.  There is a spiritual dimension and it belongs to our supernatural Creator-God's realm.  We, humans, are spirit beings, having been created spirit-soul-body.


I agree that there is a 'spiritual' side to our nature, but it has nothing to do with the notion that we were created "spirit-soul-body".


You certainly carry quite a load of insupportable beliefs, iama.


iama: I can appreciate, based upon your written compositions, that you have "scholarship" under your achievements.  The elevation of man to god-status began in The Garden of Eden!


Namchuck: No, I don't think that is true at all.


Considering that the very concept of God likely came out of our own recognized limitations - mortal, finite, limited, suffering from all these constraints, haunted by the desire for completeness - human beings invent a power endowed with precisely the opposite characteristics. God is our own lack turned inside out, like the fingers of a pair of gloves.



iama: That's you quoting your mentors!


Oh, and I was hoping it was original! :)


Our Creator-God walked in The Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve!


It's a pleasant enough myth as far as that goes, iama. I believe there are things we can take and learn from the myth, but then, that is the purpose of myth after all.


Our Creator-God has always been known.


That's certainly a claim that enjoys no good evidence.


As you state, above, all humans have within themselves a "haunted by desire for completeness."  Someone else stated, "God has placed a God-shaped vacuum within us, and we are restless until we find Him."


Yes, but whoever that was, it sounds like he/she had had their own a priori beliefs to uphold.


Human beings can ONLY be fulfilled by our Creator-God completing us by His indwelling Holy Spirit.


No, that's not true. I know any number of people living joyous and complete lives who have no interest in ancient Hebrew myths.


We, humans, designed by our Creator-God "in His / OUR / Their image" seek to fill that void by alcohol, education, drugs, friends, sex, work, etc.  We are empty until He fills us up with Himself.


Yes, people attempt to fill the vacuum that arises when the biological imperatives are met in any number of ways. As well as sex, drugs, etc, they also attempt to do it with religion.


Satan tempted Eve with "you shall be as gods," and that is what is being sought by this drive for a NWO.


Nonsense. That is just fundamentalist Christian hysteria.


Gen 3:5           
"For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."


iama: If you desired to give human information to an ant in an ant colony, would you speak to that ant in ENGLISH?


Namchuck: No. If I was an omnipotent being, it would hardly be a challenge to devise a means of communication with the ants that would clearly and compellingly bespeak an intelligence of invention beyond the capacity of any single ant or community of ants. The Bible doesn't indicate anything like this. One would have to conclude, based on the Bible itself, that it's principle God is simply an awful communicator.


iama: He has communicated through human beings to whom He gave language.  The Bible communicates our Creator-God via human recorders to other human readers.  The Ten Commandments were carved into the stone tablets by our Creator-God into the Hebrew language.  Yes. Belshazzar saw the hand writing on the wall and read but didn't comprehend the message.  Daniel was called in to interpret: 


Namchuck: Man clearly wasn't 'given' language. It evolved. The evidence for this is utterly overwhelming.


The rest of what you say here in this paragraph is, again, just a rehearsal of myth and legend.



iama: Not so!  Language was a part of Adam and Eve right from the beginning.


Yes so! And the evolution of language is wonderfully documented. Adam and Eve, on the other hand, are simply figures in an ancient myth.


  The Tower of Babel was where our Creator-God confused their language and forced the 16 grandsons of Noah to migrate away.


Yes, iama, but HOW many times do I have to explain to you that I am familiar with the biblical myths? I was raised in them, and love them still.


iama:


Dan 5:24-28         
"Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.



And this [is] the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.



This [is] the interpretation of the thing:


MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians."


Our Creator-God, certainly, can, and did write, communicating with humans, but He has chosen to use human recorders to comprise The Bible.


iama: Our Creator-God has spoken to us via the incarnate Christ Jesus / the human incarnate God-Man, because He has existed, here, in this realm as a human.


Namchuck: Again, this is merely a belief not unlike a thousand other beliefs about god's taling and incarnate heroes that abounded in the ancient world, many of them with very close parallel's with mythical figures from the Bible.


iama:  Do you state that the Christ Jesus' Apostle Thomas DIDN'T travel to India, and that there is a Christian region of India, today, as a result?


Namchuck: I don't know if Thomas travelled to india or not. Likely some Christian missionaries eventually did, which would explain that Christian region of India you speak of. But this no more speaks to the authenticity of Christianity than finding an Islamic region in China would bespeak the truth of that particular religion.



iama: Certainly, he did.  I have spoken with a man from India who left that part of India, and he confirmed the above.


What, a twenty-first century human being "confirmed" that Thomas brought the gospel to India!? And that proves it, does it? Does your credulity know no bounds? 


iama: Do you state the Apostle Paul DIDN'T travel on his three missionary journeys in the Mediterranean region?


Namchuck: Well, what if he did? He was an anally retentive individual if ever there was one.



iama: He was specifically chosen by Christ Jesus to accomplish all that he accomplished as a Christian missionary and recorder of New Testament books.


Paul thought he was chosen by Jesus to accomplish such a thing, which only goes to show that people throughout the ages have been predisposed to holding extreme beliefs.


iama: Do you state that Pontius Pilot DIDN'T condemn Christ Jesus to death by crucifixion?


Namchuck: There is no compelling evidence for that.



iama: There are secular recordings stating so.


No there are not. There are only hearsay "recordings". There is, in fact, a complete dearth of any real evidence for Jesus' death by crucifixion.


iama: Do you state that the Apostle John wasn't banished to the Isle of Patmos by Domitian?


Namchuck: According to ancient Christian tradition he was, but one has to be skeptical about religious tradition.



iama: There are Christian writings stating so.


There are Christian traditions stating so. There are also Christian traditions that are known to be palpably false.


iama: Do you state that the Gospels were NOT recorded by eye witnesses of one who interviewed eye witnesses / ear witnesses?


Namchuck: Again, there is no compelling evidence that this is the case. In fact, given the sheer number of inconsistencies and contradictions given by the so-called "eye" and "ear witnesses", one wonders if anything real happened to witness at all.



iama:  There are NO "COMPELLING EVIDENCES" of "inconsistencies and contradictions" if you read correctly, and with understanding of The Bible as a whole.


Credulous nonsense. There are contradictions in the Bible that cannot be reconciled by any pious blather about "understanding it as a whole".


iama: The best counterfeiter to have existed is Satan.  He has taken the truths of The Bible and created his counterfeit religions / myths.


Namchuck: You certainly give the mythical figure of Satan a more impressive profile than you do his supposed immortal enemy, God. Both, though, are likely fictions devised by people given to constructing fables in order to avoid reality. And there are still too many people inclined to embrace them.



iama:  Our Creator-God and His enemy, Satan, are not "mythical;" they are both to be believed and dealt with!!!


They are both undoubtedly mythical figures, and the best way to "deal" with them is to attempt to extract the lessons that the myths that invoked such entities were attempting to convey. Some of them are quite beautiful.



.





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3 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 8:44AM #30
teilhard
Posts: 51,051

I agree that you and I have NOT had the same Experiences in this Regard ...


Dec 12, 2011 -- 12:21AM, Namchuck wrote:


Yes, but your posts would indicate that your experience is substantially limited.


I have had considerable dealings with both materialists and skeptics and have found that, on the whole, they are very much predisposed to scrutinizing their own beliefs.


This is certainly not the case with the believers that I know.


Dec 11, 2011 -- 9:28PM, teilhard wrote:


I agree that, in my Experience, Skeptical-Material-ist "believers are less predisposed to scrutinizing their own beliefs ..."


Dec 11, 2011 -- 4:29PM, Namchuck wrote:


You're just blathering again, teilhard.


It doesn't take much research to discover that, on the whole, believers are less predisposed to scrutinizing their own beliefs.



Dec 11, 2011 -- 9:29AM, teilhard wrote:


I agree that the Disposition to make such Characterizations IS an a priori "Disposition," i.e., a "Mind Set" Seeking Bias Confirmation ...


Dec 11, 2011 -- 12:33AM, Namchuck wrote:


'Bull**** filter' is hardly a label, teihard. It's a reference to a disposition.


Come on, start thinking.



Dec 10, 2011 -- 11:34PM, teilhard wrote:


 ... "meaningless labels," such as, "bull**** filter set extremely low" ... ???


Dec 10, 2011 -- 2:07AM, Namchuck wrote:


Dec 8, 2011 -- 11:01PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes ... 


Those who come to The Holy Scriptures -- or ANY Sacred Texts -- with a Mind-Set World View that is Materialist, Skeptical, Atheist ... will no doubt come away ... unimpressed ...


Those who come as Open-Minded Seekers will have a DIFFERENT "take" ...




In other words, if your bull**** filter is set extremely low, you'll end up believing anything.





























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