No ... 

Interestingly, though, some Skeptic Materialists seem to harbor their OWN "unmitigated credulity" vis-a-vis their OWN Mind Set ...

See, "credulity" ISN'T an all-or-nothing Thing, is it ... ???

E.g., do you believe EVERYTHING you see and hear and have been taught ... ??? So, how do YOU sort out Ideas and Claims and Experiences and Thoughts and Meanings ... ???

Dec 10, 2011 -- 2:38PM, Namchuck wrote:

That we are agreed on, but what you call "open-minded" often seems merely a rationale for unmitigated credulity.

Dec 10, 2011 -- 10:28AM, teilhard wrote:

No ... It means that one's Mind-Set is ONE important Aspect in ANY Exploration ...

Dec 10, 2011 -- 2:07AM, Namchuck wrote:

Dec 8, 2011 -- 11:01PM, teilhard wrote:

Yes ... 

Those who come to The Holy Scriptures -- or ANY Sacred Texts -- with a Mind-Set World View that is Materialist, Skeptical, Atheist ... will no doubt come away ... unimpressed ...

Those who come as Open-Minded Seekers will have a DIFFERENT "take" ...

In other words, if your bull**** filter is set extremely low, you'll end up believing anything.

Dec 8, 2011 -- 1:37AM, Namchuck wrote:

Namchuck: As modern scholarship has soundly established, the Gospel of John is, as a previous correspondent pointed out, neither 'history' nor 'biography'.

The author of the Gospel of John even admits he is writing religious propaganda (John 20:31), which is a clue that it should be taken with a grain of salt.

One would be hard pushed to make an historical case for Jesus. Even those who suggest that Jesus is a completely mythological figure have as much 'hard' evidence to advance for their view.

That Jesus was the "Son of God" is merely a belief no different in kind from a belief in Osiris, Krishna, or Quetzlecoatl.

iama:  "Modern scholarship" isn't reliable scholarship!

Namchuck: I disagree. Moreover, modern scholarship is far more reliable than mere conditioned belief.

iama: Not so!  Modern scholarship / liberal scholarship is not scholarship foundationed by believers regarding the historical accuracy of The Bible.  You can't trust scholarship which doesn't begin approaching The Bible as it really is, God-Holy Spirit inspired human recorders recording eyewitness / ear witness accounts in historical narrative, and other forms of recordings, including figures of speech and poetry.  But, where historical narrative is used, historical data is recorded.  Consider the following:

Did Moses really write Genesis?

A deadly hypothesis denying that Moses had anything to do with Genesis, based on spurious scholarship, is still widely being taught to future Christian leaders.

iama: The Apostle John, one of Christ Jesus' 12 chosen disciples, lived to be a physical age of ~95 years of age.  He was known by historical, Christians of the first century.  He, also, recorded 1 John.  This man, John, was especially close to Jesus Christ during his 3.5 years of public ministry.  Read what John states in the following.  Click on the alphabet links at the site, and then run your cursor over the references.  You will find testimonies of other recorders, too, regarding their witness accounts of the reality, human, Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:1

The Word of Life

1 ^a"That which was ^bfrom the beginning, ^cwhich we have heard, ^dwhich we have seen with our eyes, ^ewhich we looked upon and ^fhave touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 ^gthe life ^hwas made manifest, and we have seen it, and ⁱtestify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, ^awhich was with the Father and ^hwas made manifest to us— 3 ^cthat which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed ^jour fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so ^kthat our ¹joy may be complete."

Yes, as I've said elsewhere, I'm familiar with the Christian myth.

I find the myths that human's have invented fascinating. They give us one of our clearest windows into the human psyche.

iama:  Christianity is foundationed upon The Old Testament historical recordings, and the New Testament recordings were recorded by God-Holy Spirit inspired humans recording their eye witness or ear witness accounts.

Miracles are the verifications of the Godhead, performed by Christ Jesus during His incarnation.

No humans would have EVER invented The New Testament or the Old Testament recordings!

.

Dec 8, 2011 -- 3:23PM, withwonderingawe wrote:

withwonderingawe: iamachildofhis,

I love the Gospel of John, he teaches us more of Christ in that first chapter than “John Shelby Spong” could ever possibly know.

iama: Yes, the Gospel of John is my favorite biblical recording! 

We learn that Jesus is "The Word," the reveal-er of God to humans, that He was "In the beginning...," that He was with God, that He was face to face with God "In the beginning...", that He is God, that He is the Creator-God, and that nothing was made without Him, in Him was LIFE, and the LIFE was the LIGHT of men, that the darkness of evil can't stand against Him, that He was in His world / in Israel, and those who witnessed Him didn't know Him as God, and that as many as received Him / believed He was God, incarnate, became sons of God, not born sons by human conception, but by God's regeneration. 

John 1:14 relates that "The Word" became FLESH / human and TABERNACLED among us. The OT tabernacle was comprised of three areas, and the God-Man, also, a trinity "in the image of God," revealed God - Father-Son-Holy Spirit glory.

"In Him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead, bodily."

The Law was given by Moses, and Christ Jesus, God-Son, incarnate fulfilled that LAW 100% so that, now, GRACE and TRUTH and MERCY, and LOVE, ETC., can flow freely to humans who will believe. 

The God-Man, "Who is in the bosom of the Father" has declared God-Father / revealed Him to us.

v. 29 records John the Baptist as pointing out Jesus "Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world."

v. 34 records John the Baptist stating that Jesus is "the Son of God."

v. 49 records Nathanael as stating "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

withwonderingawe: It seems to me reading through what JRT posted Spong had a problem with prophets having visions or knowledge and power beyond the common man’s ability.

Spong; “Surely John did not think of this as a literal story….”

I’m not an educated Bible scholar by any means but I could figure this out faster than Spong could comb his hair.

iama:  Spong is a modern scholar / a liberal scholar.

withwondringawe: I believe when John the Baptist says “I knew him not” it wasn’t that he had never met him after all they were cousins. There are family events which people get together for, both of their fathers Joseph and Zacharias died at some point perhaps a funeral or two?

Instead I think he meant, I didn’t realize but now I understand.

If we are to believe Luke’s account and he seemed to have interviewed those who were there, “eyewitness”, John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit even before his birth. If we believe the Bible to be God’s word then why not believe that the Holy Spirit could reveal things about Jesus to John that other men might not perceive. In Barclay’s translation of the New Testament he makes it pretty clear that the Baptist had seen a vision where Jesus appeared to him and explained, when you see the sign of the dove you’ll know that it is I, the Son of God.

iama: Yes, certainly, God-Holy Spirit is capable of communicating with human spirits attuned to listening to Him.  As you state, correctly, John the Baptist was filled with God-Holy Spirit from the womb - from the time of Mary's arrival at Elizabeth's home for a three month visit.

withwonderingawe: Spong seems to get lost in his worry over whether John should be taken literal or figuratively, although I do as a Mormon appreciate his rejection of the Trinity.

iama: The trinity is biblical.  At the time of The Creation / Genesis 1:1 and following, you will notice that v. 1 states, "In the beginning God..." and John 1:1 and following, states "In the beginning was the Word..." This The Word, is the One Who TABERNACLED with humans, and He is, also, the One of Whom it is stated "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." Genesis 1:3 states, "And God said, 'Let there be LIGHT...'." Genesis 1:2 states, "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Genesis 1:26 states, "And God said, 'Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness:...'." So, you see that in Genesis 1 we have the trinity: God - Father-Son-Holy Spirit involved in The Creation.  You have three distinct PERSONS existing in The Godhead, but you can't separate the three PERSONS, because it takes the three PERSONS to form the Godhead / the Trinity.

It also takes three entities of the human being to make one human being: human spirit, human soul, and human body.

withwonderingawe: But why not take John both ways, yes Jesus could turn water into wine. Were there unseen angels pouring in a concentrated mix or does a God have the ability to change the molecular structures of atoms. Does it matter, either way a miracle occurred.

iama: Yes! YES! The reality, historical Christ Jesus walked this Earth for ~33 years, 3.5 years of which were His public ministry of revealing God-Father to Israel, His chosen nation through which He had prepared a special people and a special king, David, through whom The Messiah would incarnate, and had Israel received her Messiah, Israel would have been given her King, but they rejected Him.  Christians are awaiting Christ Jesus' Second Coming, while Israel is awaiting, their promised King Who will set up His KINGDOM upon this Earth. The Old Testament Scriptures prophecied both comings, by the way. Look at Isaiah 53.

withwonderingawe: I think most people would take this statement "Whoever drinks of the water I give will never thirst again." as symbolic. It goes back to an Old Testament metaphoric use of famine and drought.

In Isa 29 it speaks of a time when “an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite”

Or Amos 8
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord”

Jesus is saying if we listen to his words our souls will be filled with truth and we’ll never thirst for it again.

I guess I just don’t see what Spong’s hang up is??

iama: Spong is a modern / liberal scholar, and is not truly representing The Bible!

The Water of Life which Christ Jesus is promising is God-Holy Spirit given to believers, who are regenerated by Him.  God-Holy Spirit comes to indwell each believer / receiver of Christ Jesus' purchased salvation on their behalf. 

Jesus said that He was "The Bread of LIFE, come down from heaven," and "The Water of Life." 

We, humans have human spirits which, "in Adam" are dead spiritually.  God-Holy Spirit POWER regenerates human spirits giving to them God's ETERNAL LIFE.  Just like our physical bodies require bread / food and water, so, too, our human-regenerated-spirits required SPIRITUAL FOOD and SPIRITUAL WATER: Christ Jesus' Himself, our spiritual BREAD and spiritual WATER in order to "grow in grace, even in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ."

.

 ... "meaningless labels," such as, "bull**** filter set extremely low" ... ???

Dec 10, 2011 -- 2:07AM, Namchuck wrote:

Dec 8, 2011 -- 11:01PM, teilhard wrote:

Yes ... 

Those who come to The Holy Scriptures -- or ANY Sacred Texts -- with a Mind-Set World View that is Materialist, Skeptical, Atheist ... will no doubt come away ... unimpressed ...

Those who come as Open-Minded Seekers will have a DIFFERENT "take" ...

In other words, if your bull**** filter is set extremely low, you'll end up believing anything.

Dec 10, 2011 -- 10:56PM, Namchuck wrote:

Namchuck: I am, as I've repeatedly said, very familiar with the Christian myth and your beliefs about it.

Real scholarship has definitively shown that none of what you assert above is anything other than mere belief.

If the Bible was really the work of a perfect and loving God, it would be superlative in every respect to anything that could be conceived by human intellect alone. It would be accurate, concise, clear, and consistent throughout. It is abundantly obvious to anyone who has read or studied the Bible that it is very very far from any of these things. It is patently obvious that it is the work of men, and it ought to be loved as a result of this.

iama:  How is it that you are "very familiar with the Christian 'myth'?"

How do you define "real scholarship?" What dates are given to your, accepted, "real scholarship?"

Millions of human beings, understanding and relying upon The Bible's truths, prior to the ""modern / liberal "scholarship" destructions, have entered into their eternal reward, as The Bible has promised.

What is "modern" / "liberal" / "enlightenment" / "scholarship" is Satan's hand at work through human instruments.

If The Bible were to be as you are requiring it to be: "accurate (which it is), concise, (which it is), clear (which it is to believers), consistent throughout (which it is), and 'SUPERLATIVE IN EVERY RESPECT TO ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CONCEIVED BY HUMAN INTELLECT ALONE,'" humans would NOT be capable of reading and understanding it!

If you desired to give human information to an ant in an ant colony, would you speak to that ant in ENGLISH?

Our Creator-God has spoken to us via the incarnate Christ Jesus / the human incarnate God-Man, because He has existed, here, in this realm as a human.

.