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Switch to Forum Live View To Those Who Say the Bible Is God's Word: Prove It
3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 11:28AM #41
genowharton
Posts: 10

Oct 13, 2011 -- 10:29PM, Peter_d_roman wrote:

 


very excellent point!


 


of all the bible - old and new testaments- only the below and johns gosple  applies to all for all time.


 


31 "The day is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.32 This    covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I    took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They    broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,"    says the LORD.
  33 "But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day," says the LORD.    "I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them  on   their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.34 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already," says the LORD. "And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins." (Jeremiah 31, NLT, rse).


 


thanks for your reply


 


>p


 


 


Oct 13, 2011 -- 10:20PM, genowharton wrote:

Sep 29, 2011 -- 3:06PM, Rgurley4 wrote:


The Bible: Self PROVING


Why do we Christ-followers consider the Bible the "words" of the TRI-UNE God?


Let's look at some of what the Bible / Scriptures has to say about itself:
(...sorry about stringing citations, but how else can you do it??)


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:
John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


2 Timothy 3
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,
     because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures,
     which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Peter 1:20,21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20,21


John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room
for the books that would be written.


Luke 24: 25-27...the post resurrection super BIBLE study
He (Jesus) said to them (disciples), "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken!
Did not the Christ (Messiah) have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets,
He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (soul + Spirit)



"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually discerned." SEE: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (NIV)




Since you quoted modern English Bibles and not any of the ancient Greek text before the 6th century AD, there is no way I can know if the quotes are what the ancient athors wrote or were edited or even added by copyists later.






Very good point. Jesus, actually Yehua since he is a Jew, came to fulfill that prophecy...


7 Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread arrived, when the Passover lambs were sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John ahead and said, "Go and prepare the Passover meal, so we can eat it together." 9 "Where do you want us to go?" they asked him. 10 He replied, "As soon as you enter Jerusalem, a man carrying a pitcher of water will meet you. Follow him. At the house he enters, 11 say to the owner, 'The Teacher asks, Where is the guest room where I can eat the Passover meal with my disciples?' 12 He will take you upstairs to a large room that is already set up. That is the place. Go ahead and prepare our supper there." 13 They went off to the city and found everything just as Jesus had said, and they prepared the Passover supper there. 14 Then at the proper time Jesus and the twelve apostles sat down together at the table. 15 Jesus said, "I have looked forward to this hour with deep longing, anxious to eat this Passover meal with you before my suffering begins. 16 For I tell you now that I won't eat it again until it comes to fulfillment in the Kingdom of God." 17 Then he took a cup of wine, and when he had given thanks for it, he said, "Take this and share it among yourselves. 18 For I will not drink wine again until the Kingdom of God has come." 19 Then he took a loaf of bread; and when he had thanked God for it, he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "This is my body, given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 20 After supper he took another cup of wine and said, "This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you -- an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you. (Luke 22, NLT, 1996).


Now I know I quoted a modern English Bible and not an ancient Greek Manuscript before the 6th Century AD so I so not know if this was what Luke actually wrote or a copyist edited... but it does show somehat that Yehua did have something to do with establishing this New Covenant.


Funny that Christianity started Jewish with Gentiles coming into in it in the 1st Century AD and ended with Gentiles taking over Christianity and excluding Jews from it by mid 2nd Century AD.


Oh, I want to point out I am a Johannine Christian, not a Pauline one.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 12:01PM #42
Peter_d_roman
Posts: 5,999

 


very cool and thanks once more  for  adding here in this post your insight and understandings and yes be assured that  your " john based faith " rings out true and clear.


 


yes Our Savior Brother Yesh'wa and His Perfect Faith and Greatest Love has been tested and proven True as none others has been.


 


He indeed has everything to do with establishing The New Covenant that has indeed come to replace moses covenant- just as jerm 31/34  said moses covenant would one day be replaced- not built upon.


 


seems to me our internal church conflict seems to stem  from our enthusiastic willingness in looking to the past via traditions established by lets say as faithful a followers our predecessors were able to be-


 


instead of heeding jerm 31/34 and trusting that Our Father will put His Word/ Show HIS WILL to each of us directly like a universal spiritual conference call as easily as our modern day commo systems can do likewise with our phone systems countless times each day.


 


thanks again for your thoughtful and very insightful reply


 


>p


 


Oct 14, 2011 -- 11:28AM, genowharton wrote:

Oct 13, 2011 -- 10:29PM, Peter_d_roman wrote:


 


very excellent point!


 


of all the bible - old and new testaments- only the below and johns gosple  applies to all for all time.


 


31 "The day is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.32 This    covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I    took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They    broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,"    says the LORD.
  33 "But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day," says the LORD.    "I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them  on   their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.34 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already," says the LORD. "And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins." (Jeremiah 31, NLT, rse).


 


thanks for your reply


 


>p


 


 


Oct 13, 2011 -- 10:20PM, genowharton wrote:

Sep 29, 2011 -- 3:06PM, Rgurley4 wrote:


The Bible: Self PROVING


Why do we Christ-followers consider the Bible the "words" of the TRI-UNE God?


Let's look at some of what the Bible / Scriptures has to say about itself:
(...sorry about stringing citations, but how else can you do it??)


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:
John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


2 Timothy 3
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,
     because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures,
     which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Peter 1:20,21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20,21


John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room
for the books that would be written.


Luke 24: 25-27...the post resurrection super BIBLE study
He (Jesus) said to them (disciples), "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken!
Did not the Christ (Messiah) have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets,
He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (soul + Spirit)



"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually discerned." SEE: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (NIV)




Since you quoted modern English Bibles and not any of the ancient Greek text before the 6th century AD, there is no way I can know if the quotes are what the ancient athors wrote or were edited or even added by copyists later.








Very good point. Jesus, actually Yehua since he is a Jew, came to fulfill that prophecy...


7 Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread arrived, when the Passover lambs were sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John ahead and said, "Go and prepare the Passover meal, so we can eat it together." 9 "Where do you want us to go?" they asked him. 10 He replied, "As soon as you enter Jerusalem, a man carrying a pitcher of water will meet you. Follow him. At the house he enters, 11 say to the owner, 'The Teacher asks, Where is the guest room where I can eat the Passover meal with my disciples?' 12 He will take you upstairs to a large room that is already set up. That is the place. Go ahead and prepare our supper there." 13 They went off to the city and found everything just as Jesus had said, and they prepared the Passover supper there. 14 Then at the proper time Jesus and the twelve apostles sat down together at the table. 15 Jesus said, "I have looked forward to this hour with deep longing, anxious to eat this Passover meal with you before my suffering begins. 16 For I tell you now that I won't eat it again until it comes to fulfillment in the Kingdom of God." 17 Then he took a cup of wine, and when he had given thanks for it, he said, "Take this and share it among yourselves. 18 For I will not drink wine again until the Kingdom of God has come." 19 Then he took a loaf of bread; and when he had thanked God for it, he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "This is my body, given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 20 After supper he took another cup of wine and said, "This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you -- an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you. (Luke 22, NLT, 1996).


Now I know I quoted a modern English Bible and not an ancient Greek Manuscript before the 6th Century AD so I so not know if this was what Luke actually wrote or a copyist edited... but it does show somehat that Yehua did have something to do with establishing this New Covenant.


Funny that Christianity started Jewish with Gentiles coming into in it in the 1st Century AD and ended with Gentiles taking over Christianity and excluding Jews from it by mid 2nd Century AD.


Oh, I want to point out I am a Johannine Christian, not a Pauline one.





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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 5:03PM #43
Namchuck
Posts: 11,698

Oct 14, 2011 -- 11:07AM, Rgurley4 wrote:


Here are MY BELIEFS on the Bible, with emphasis on the New Testament.
These views  are those of most evangelical conservative Bible scholars. Most are backed by FACTS that are still being discovered. These FACTs shift the burden of proof for unbelievers to DISPROVE the Bible, primarily the New Testament Gospels and Acts,


My Christ-following VIEWS:


The Bible (Scripture) is the supreme authority when compared to other writings



and precepts.


Nonsense. Take, for instance, biblical morality. What standards of the Bible are we to live by and which are we disregard, considering how contradictory they are?


All of the ACTUAL WORDS therein were "Spirit Inspired", and "superintended" by God.


An unsubstantiated claim and a baroque assumption.


The ~40 authors and their scribes recorded these words in "original manuscripts" which were without error.


Again, an unsubstantiated claim. Furthermore, the biblical author of Genesis has no clue as to man's true historical context. That author, like most of the others in the Bible, also possessed a flawed cosmogony. The Bible was wrong from the very beginning.


Systematic study of Scripture leads one to the conclusion that it is God's supreme way of speaking to Man.


Who's "systematic study of scripture"? 


Moreover, if the Bible is God's "supreme way" of speaking to Man, then he is a dreadful communicator. If the Bible were really the work of a perfect and loving God (and we'll leave the vexed, at least for believers, question of theodicy aside for the moment), it would be obviously superlative in every respect to anything conceived by human intellect alone. It would be concise, accurate, clear, and consistent throughout. As anyone who has engaged in the "systematic study" of the bible knows, it is very far away from any of these things.



The "economy" or God's methods of relating to Man changed from Old Testament times to New Testament due to the historical appearance of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the God-Man.


Again, unsubstantiated nonsense. God, as a product of the human mind, has evolved along with man's own moral progress. Early on, God was little different from some sort of Oriental despot, only bigger and invisible, but by the time of the New Testament he had become a little more avuncular. Today, he seems to be in touch with his feminine side and is even a little 'green' along with it.


The Bible as a piece of literature is withhout peer, and it has been miraculously preserved, translated, and distributed.


I'll concede that it is marvelous literature (but not "without peer"), especially in its King James robes. 


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:


As most theologians and students of the New Testament now concede, the a Gospels are wholly unreliable, permeated, as they are, with contradictions and inconsistencies.



John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


Has the COLLECTION of books and letters as piece of literature that we called the New Testament passed acceptable TESTS to make it accurate enough to be BELIEVABLE?"


Actually, no, they haven't. We now have in our possession enough of the literature of the early Christians to know that there never was a time in its history that the movement enjoyed any sort of consistent and homogenous view of Christ or his mission. 


Similar to: " historically accurate?"


PRIMARY TESTS: Authenticity and Authority.


They have failed all the tests to historical accuracy. 



The first passing: all 27 books were accepted by the Council of Carthage, ~397 AD.
There are more than 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament....the best attested document of ALL ancient writings.


This is not accurate. All that the Council of Carthage amounted to was a selection of those writings previously referred to that supported and bolstered the view of the current theological paradigm where anything, and anybody, that differed from the party line was simply eliminated, one way or the other.  



There are numerous fragments dating from ~135 -800 AD written on papyrus. There are hundreds of accurate parchment copies produced in the 4th-5th centuries. There are ~86,000 quotations in old Latin, Latin, Syriac, and Egyptian translations from the 3rd century. There is more scholarly work done on this piece of literature than any other in existence.(Ryrie 2084)


Where, again, anything that differred or challenged the prevailing theological paradigm, was simply labelled as heretical and put aside.


Conclusion: The New Testament translations in ANY version have been based on copious, reliable, accurate, authentic words from ~40 authors who were authorized and accepted "historians".


Not in the least bit accurate to the real historical situation.


The BIBLE: Fact or Fiction??


A goodly mixture of the two, with a few other incredients thrown into the mix.


 


Because there can never be "conclusive proof ", based on the criminal legal standard "beyond any reasonable doubt", of ANY historical series of events occurring THOUSANDS of years ago, the premise of proof of BIBLE FACTS: Yes or No is a false one.


As previously suggested, the Bible is a mixture of some fact and a good deal of fiction.


The mere existence of millions of Christ-followers who BELIEVE the facts in the Bible is strong testimony to the truths therein.


That you should invoke the 'argument from numbers', while disappointing, is, unfortunately, predictable of one bereft of anything substantial to advance by way of compelling evidence for his beloved tome. The same argument, of course, could be invoked for the authenticity of either the tenets of Islam or Hinduism, the latter enjoying a much longer history than that of any of the people's of the Bible.


Others have attacked it, hoping to shake spiritual FAITH of its believers. This veiled attempt will not succeed either.


Now you invoke a strawman! There is no "veiled attempt" to "shake the spiritual faith" of Bible believers. There is just the plain facts of history and the - honest - and dispassionate systematic study of the Bible, which I have been involved for at least twenty years.


But I will concede one thing, the attempt to expunge the neurosis that impels men to forge gods will likely never succeed. Among other things, religion is a response to the ontological void apparent to everyone who learns that he will one day die, that his sojourn on earth is finite, and that each life represents an interlude between the nothingness that came before and the nothingness that comes after. Furthermore, a fiction does not die, an illusion never passes away, a fairy tale does not refute itself.





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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 5:15PM #44
Namchuck
Posts: 11,698

Oct 14, 2011 -- 11:28AM, genowharton wrote:

Oct 13, 2011 -- 10:29PM, Peter_d_roman wrote:


 


very excellent point!


 


of all the bible - old and new testaments- only the below and johns gosple  applies to all for all time.


 


31 "The day is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.32 This    covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I    took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They    broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,"    says the LORD.
  33 "But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day," says the LORD.    "I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them  on   their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.34 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already," says the LORD. "And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins." (Jeremiah 31, NLT, rse).


 


thanks for your reply


 


>p


 


 


Oct 13, 2011 -- 10:20PM, genowharton wrote:

Sep 29, 2011 -- 3:06PM, Rgurley4 wrote:


The Bible: Self PROVING


Why do we Christ-followers consider the Bible the "words" of the TRI-UNE God?


Let's look at some of what the Bible / Scriptures has to say about itself:
(...sorry about stringing citations, but how else can you do it??)


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:
John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


2 Timothy 3
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,
     because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures,
     which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Peter 1:20,21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20,21


John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room
for the books that would be written.


Luke 24: 25-27...the post resurrection super BIBLE study
He (Jesus) said to them (disciples), "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken!
Did not the Christ (Messiah) have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets,
He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (soul + Spirit)



"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually discerned." SEE: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (NIV)




Since you quoted modern English Bibles and not any of the ancient Greek text before the 6th century AD, there is no way I can know if the quotes are what the ancient athors wrote or were edited or even added by copyists later.








Very good point. Jesus, actually Yehua since he is a Jew, came to fulfill that prophecy...


7 Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread arrived, when the Passover lambs were sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John ahead and said, "Go and prepare the Passover meal, so we can eat it together." 9 "Where do you want us to go?" they asked him. 10 He replied, "As soon as you enter Jerusalem, a man carrying a pitcher of water will meet you. Follow him. At the house he enters, 11 say to the owner, 'The Teacher asks, Where is the guest room where I can eat the Passover meal with my disciples?' 12 He will take you upstairs to a large room that is already set up. That is the place. Go ahead and prepare our supper there." 13 They went off to the city and found everything just as Jesus had said, and they prepared the Passover supper there. 14 Then at the proper time Jesus and the twelve apostles sat down together at the table. 15 Jesus said, "I have looked forward to this hour with deep longing, anxious to eat this Passover meal with you before my suffering begins. 16 For I tell you now that I won't eat it again until it comes to fulfillment in the Kingdom of God." 17 Then he took a cup of wine, and when he had given thanks for it, he said, "Take this and share it among yourselves. 18 For I will not drink wine again until the Kingdom of God has come." 19 Then he took a loaf of bread; and when he had thanked God for it, he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "This is my body, given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 20 After supper he took another cup of wine and said, "This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you -- an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you. (Luke 22, NLT, 1996).


Now I know I quoted a modern English Bible and not an ancient Greek Manuscript before the 6th Century AD so I so not know if this was what Luke actually wrote or a copyist edited... but it does show somehat that Yehua did have something to do with establishing this New Covenant.


Funny that Christianity started Jewish with Gentiles coming into in it in the 1st Century AD and ended with Gentiles taking over Christianity and excluding Jews from it by mid 2nd Century AD.


Oh, I want to point out I am a Johannine Christian, not a Pauline one.




Your post is a good example of one who approaches the Bible from a set of a priori beliefs. Your willingness to concede that you are a "Johannine Christian" as opposed to a "Pauline" one simply confirms this, as well as implying that you simply possess a raft of different but equally baroque assumptions.


It is the possession of such elaborate, but unjustified assumptions, that actually, and somewhat ironically, unites otherwise divergent Christians.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 5:44PM #45
Namchuck
Posts: 11,698

Oct 14, 2011 -- 11:22AM, Rgurley4 wrote:


Peter Peter...how can you pick and choose? A special spiritual discernment?


"...of all the bible - old and new testaments- only the below (extract) and johns gospel  applies to all for all time..."


John 21...the author of John's Gospel: Conclusion


24 This is the disciple who AJ)" class="xref">is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true.


 25 And there are also AK)" class="xref">many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.


 




Bible-believers do it all the time, no exceptions.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 6:57PM #46
Peter_d_roman
Posts: 5,999

 


 


namchuck as far as i can asses the tree of " christian truth" began to be misshapen by the willful spiritual bad teaching attributed to the imposter pauls writings  around 65 c e.


 


as a counter to those " teachings"  brought into the budding christian communities by safostirfic writings  and elegant but false teaching he created-  came the true apostle john wrote a " counter " of sorts to present in that noble written media The Saviors Truth as well as a sheet of velum or papyrus can hold it to those church communities already infected by pauls poison pill in writ.


 


the imposter paul hoped to keep The Saviors TRUTH hidden in plain sight as The Apostle John made HIS  LIGHT More Clearly visible to all.


 


that is what was meant by the distinction of paulistic and jonathon at at our spiritual root / our faith fount.


 


what is unfolding now in modern christain thought is no less exciting and hopeful as was columbus " new world discovery" and yet it has been coming to the surface from the time the holy little brother from a village in northern italy called assisi  when in 1225 c e he said yes to My Savior Brothers Call to:


 


" FRANCIS WONT YOU REBUILD MY HOUSE- BECAUSE AS YOU CAN CLEANLY SEE IT IS FALLING INTO RUIN".


 


and now in this age we are set to see what had been made corrupted and the vessels of great human suffering  in years past become as it was given to us to b the very fount of peace and good and love perfected.


 


the new  worlds  that columbus  and his fellow discovers discovered were only discovered- found by them - located where they had been all along- not created by any of them.


 


yet once they were found " the world "it self was not ever the same again.


 


the same is true for this " modern day christian thought" that following followers long dead and gone leads only to the grave that there bones now own-


 


that TO FIND LIFE- WE MUST LOOK TO AND FOLLOW THE FOREVER LIVING ONE BY HIS DIRECTED CALL TO LOVE ALL AS HE LOVES US.


 


THAT is a christains first and last and solo duty -


 


our root duty and its attent  deed -


 


NOT the  reading of scriptures on paper but The Word now found upon New Covenant Practitioners  living hearts.


 


again this WAY has been here all along but undiscovered every day for the past 2011 years-


 


but it has only recently been "DISCOVERED ANEW" and the arguments and supporting testimony is still being formed as we move foreword deeper into This  Newly Rediscovered  Covenants SINGLE COMMANDMENT  and common christian duty and obligation-


 


to love all as Our Savior Brother Teacher and Friend Loves us all- perfectly.


 


now i understand that to you all all hog wosh of sorts and i respect your right to feel that way, but this is how we feel about these things and i hope you will reply if you do reply in a loving kind spirit- not hostel and unneeding harsh


 


thanks for your reply.


 and a peaceful passover to all that keep it.


>p


 


 


Others have attacked it, hoping to shake spiritual FAITH of its believers. This veiled attempt will not succeed either.


Now you invoke a strawman! There is no "veiled attempt" to "shake the spiritual faith" of Bible believers. There is just the plain facts of history and the - honest - and dispassionate systematic study of the Bible, which I have been involved for at least twenty years.


But I will concede one thing, the attempt to expunge the neurosis that impels men to forge gods will likely never succeed. Among other things, religion is a response to the ontological void apparent to everyone who learns that he will one day die, that his sojourn on earth is finite, and that each life represents an interlude between the nothingness that came before and the nothingness that comes after. Furthermore, a fiction does not die, an illusion never passes away, a fairy tale does not refute itself.







Moderated by Stardove on Oct 15, 2011 - 01:59AM
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 10:25PM #47
Namchuck
Posts: 11,698

Oct 14, 2011 -- 6:57PM, Peter_d_roman wrote:


 


 


namchuck as far as i can asses the tree of " christian truth" began to be misshapen by the willful spiritual bad teaching attributed to the imposter pauls writings  around 65 c e.


There's little doubt that St Paul's teachings were warped and anti-human.


 


as a counter to those " teachings"  brought into the budding christian communities by safostirfic writings  and elegant but false teaching he created-  came the true apostle john wrote a " counter " of sorts to present in that noble written media The Saviors Truth as well as a sheet of velum or papyrus can hold it to those church communities already infected by pauls poison pill in writ.


We don't know that John's writings represent the "Saviors Truth". That is a matter of speculative belief. The fact is, the Gospel's are so contradictory that we will now never know just what Jesus' message actually amounted to.


 


the imposter paul hoped to keep The Saviors TRUTH hidden in plain sight as The Apostle John made HIS  LIGHT More Clearly visible to all.


Again, a matter of speculation and belief.


 


that is what was meant by the distinction of paulistic and jonathon at at our spiritual root / our faith fount.


Or, to put it in context of a bladeless knife without a handle: Pauline teachings are the blade, while John's are the handle.


 


what is unfolding now in modern christain thought is no less exciting and hopeful as was columbus " new world discovery" and yet it has been coming to the surface from the time the holy little brother from a village in northern italy called assisi  when in 1225 c e he said yes to My Savior Brothers Call to:


 


" FRANCIS WONT YOU REBUILD MY HOUSE- BECAUSE AS YOU CAN CLEANLY SEE IT IS FALLING INTO RUIN".


Joseph Smith was supposedly told something similar by a heavenly being. Mohammed even earlier.


 


and now in this age we are set to see what had been made corrupted and the vessels of great human suffering  in years past become as it was given to us to b the very fount of peace and good and love perfected.


I have no idea what you are talking about here, Peter_d_roman. Perhaps you could elucidate?


 


the new  worlds  that columbus  and his fellow discovers discovered were only discovered- found by them - located where they had been all along- not created by any of them.


Again, your analogy is a bit vague.


 


yet once they were found " the world "it self was not ever the same again.


 


the same is true for this " modern day christian thought" that following followers long dead and gone leads only to the grave that there bones now own-


 


that TO FIND LIFE- WE MUST LOOK TO AND FOLLOW THE FOREVER LIVING ONE BY HIS DIRECTED CALL TO LOVE ALL AS HE LOVES US.


There's no need to shout, Peter_d_roman, and you are entitled to your belief, but remember, it is just a belief.


 


THAT is a christains first and last and solo duty -


 


our root duty and its attent  deed -


 


NOT the  reading of scriptures on paper but The Word now found upon New Covenant Practitioners  living hearts.


 


again this WAY has been here all along but undiscovered every day for the past 2011 years-


Your kidding, of course. What has made the difference in 2011?


 


but it has only recently been "DISCOVERED ANEW" and the arguments and supporting testimony is still being formed as we move foreword deeper into This  Newly Rediscovered  Covenants SINGLE COMMANDMENT  and common christian duty and obligation-


Just when and by whom was this discovery "recently" made? I thought you said St Francis knew about it in 1225 C.E.?


 


to love all as Our Savior Brother Teacher and Friend Loves us all- perfectly.


It's a lovely belief, Peter_d_roman, but you can't claim that there is any evidence for it.


 


now i understand that to you all all hog wosh of sorts and i respect your right to feel that way, but this is how we feel about these things and i hope you will reply if you do reply in a loving kind spirit- not hostel and unneeding harsh


Well, yes, I am very skeptical of it, and I know how sensitive some believers are to having their beliefs subjected to scrutiny. Some of them are as sensitive as a sunburnt neck.


What you need to understand is that, there are some of us more concerned with truth, people for whom knowledge is more compelling than mere belief. Some people are driven by a simple will to believe. For such people, religion fulfils a basic desire to be religious. Their faith is impregnable to fact, their belief impervious to mere truth. They are capable of rejecting conclusions validly deduced from true premises whenever that conclusion contradicts tenets of their faith. Some are even inclined to justify this position to some measure. 


 


thanks for your reply.


 and a peaceful passover to all that keep it.


Shalom, and thanks.


>p


 


 


Others have attacked it, hoping to shake spiritual FAITH of its believers. This veiled attempt will not succeed either.


Now you invoke a strawman! There is no "veiled attempt" to "shake the spiritual faith" of Bible believers. There is just the plain facts of history and the - honest - and dispassionate systematic study of the Bible, which I have been involved for at least twenty years.


But I will concede one thing, the attempt to expunge the neurosis that impels men to forge gods will likely never succeed. Among other things, religion is a response to the ontological void apparent to everyone who learns that he will one day die, that his sojourn on earth is finite, and that each life represents an interlude between the nothingness that came before and the nothingness that comes after. Furthermore, a fiction does not die, an illusion never passes away, a fairy tale does not refute itself.



 




Moderated by Stardove on Oct 15, 2011 - 02:00AM
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 11:38PM #48
Peter_d_roman
Posts: 5,999

 


 


john smiths interaction was said to have been with the angel named moroni and mohomid was told his lords name was " allah".


 


if ether confessed YAHWEH or Yesh'wa it would be something to talk about- as it is they are not my spiritual kin until they change there spiritual direction/ leadership.


 


>p


 

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 11:42PM #49
Peter_d_roman
Posts: 5,999

i dont know where that last line came from- my post end with my pfish or the ps.


 


lastly maybe what is changed now in 2011 is our collective capacity to communicate as we do with the web and to understand deeper thinking and thoughts.


 


>p


 


Oct 14, 2011 -- 10:25PM, Namchuck wrote:


Oct 14, 2011 -- 6:57PM, Peter_d_roman wrote:


 


 


namchuck as far as i can asses the tree of " christian truth" began to be misshapen by the willful spiritual bad teaching attributed to the imposter pauls writings  around 65 c e.


There's little doubt that St Paul's teachings were warped and anti-human.


 


as a counter to those " teachings"  brought into the budding christian communities by safostirfic writings  and elegant but false teaching he created-  came the true apostle john wrote a " counter " of sorts to present in that noble written media The Saviors Truth as well as a sheet of velum or papyrus can hold it to those church communities already infected by pauls poison pill in writ.


We don't know that John's writings represent the "Saviors Truth". That is a matter of speculative belief. The fact is, the Gospel's are so contradictory that we will now never know just what Jesus' message actually amounted to.


 


the imposter paul hoped to keep The Saviors TRUTH hidden in plain sight as The Apostle John made HIS  LIGHT More Clearly visible to all.


Again, a matter of speculation and belief.


 


that is what was meant by the distinction of paulistic and jonathon at at our spiritual root / our faith fount.


Or, to put it in context of a bladeless knife without a handle: Pauline teachings are the blade, while John's are the handle.


 


what is unfolding now in modern christain thought is no less exciting and hopeful as was columbus " new world discovery" and yet it has been coming to the surface from the time the holy little brother from a village in northern italy called assisi  when in 1225 c e he said yes to My Savior Brothers Call to:


 


" FRANCIS WONT YOU REBUILD MY HOUSE- BECAUSE AS YOU CAN CLEANLY SEE IT IS FALLING INTO RUIN".


Joseph Smith was supposedly told something similar by a heavenly being. Mohammed even earlier.


 


and now in this age we are set to see what had been made corrupted and the vessels of great human suffering  in years past become as it was given to us to b the very fount of peace and good and love perfected.


I have no idea what you are talking about here, Peter_d_roman. Perhaps you could elucidate?


 


the new  worlds  that columbus  and his fellow discovers discovered were only discovered- found by them - located where they had been all along- not created by any of them.


Again, your analogy is a bit vague.


 


yet once they were found " the world "it self was not ever the same again.


 


the same is true for this " modern day christian thought" that following followers long dead and gone leads only to the grave that there bones now own-


 


that TO FIND LIFE- WE MUST LOOK TO AND FOLLOW THE FOREVER LIVING ONE BY HIS DIRECTED CALL TO LOVE ALL AS HE LOVES US.


There's no need to shout, Peter_d_roman, and you are entitled to your belief, but remember, it is just a belief.


 


THAT is a christains first and last and solo duty -


 


our root duty and its attent  deed -


 


NOT the  reading of scriptures on paper but The Word now found upon New Covenant Practitioners  living hearts.


 


again this WAY has been here all along but undiscovered every day for the past 2011 years-


Your kidding, of course. What has made the difference in 2011?


 


but it has only recently been "DISCOVERED ANEW" and the arguments and supporting testimony is still being formed as we move foreword deeper into This  Newly Rediscovered  Covenants SINGLE COMMANDMENT  and common christian duty and obligation-


Just when and by whom was this discovery "recently" made? I thought you said St Francis knew about it in 1225 C.E.?


 


to love all as Our Savior Brother Teacher and Friend Loves us all- perfectly.


It's a lovely belief, Peter_d_roman, but you can't claim that there is any evidence for it.


 


now i understand that to you all all hog wosh of sorts and i respect your right to feel that way, but this is how we feel about these things and i hope you will reply if you do reply in a loving kind spirit- not hostel and unneeding harsh


Well, yes, I am very skeptical of it, and I know how sensitive some believers are to having their beliefs subjected to scrutiny. Some of them are as sensitive as a sunburnt neck.


What you need to understand is that, there are some of us more concerned with truth, people for whom knowledge is more compelling than mere belief. Some people are driven by a simple will to believe. For such people, religion fulfils a basic desire to be religious. Their faith is impregnable to fact, their belief impervious to mere truth. They are capable of rejecting conclusions validly deduced from true premises whenever that conclusion contradicts tenets of their faith. Some are even inclined to justify this position to some measure. 


 


thanks for your reply.


 and a peaceful passover to all that keep it.


Shalom, and thanks.


>p


 


 


Others have attacked it, hoping to shake spiritual FAITH of its believers. This veiled attempt will not succeed either.


Now you invoke a strawman! There is no "veiled attempt" to "shake the spiritual faith" of Bible believers. There is just the plain facts of history and the - honest - and dispassionate systematic study of the Bible, which I have been involved for at least twenty years.


But I will concede one thing, the attempt to expunge the neurosis that impels men to forge gods will likely never succeed. Among other things, religion is a response to the ontological void apparent to everyone who learns that he will one day die, that his sojourn on earth is finite, and that each life represents an interlude between the nothingness that came before and the nothingness that comes after. Furthermore, a fiction does not die, an illusion never passes away, a fairy tale does not refute itself.

















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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 11:47PM #50
Namchuck
Posts: 11,698

Oct 14, 2011 -- 11:38PM, Peter_d_roman wrote:


 


 


john smiths interaction was said to have been with the angel named moroni and mohomid was told his lords name was " allah".


That was 'Joseph Smith', Peter_d_roman, and I was referring to his earlier acclaimed vision when the Bible God appeared to him. Given that would have been Yahweh, Joseph Smith is your spiritual kin.


 


if ether confessed YAHWEH or Yesh'wa it would be something to talk about- as it is they are not my spiritual kin until they change there spiritual direction/ leadership.


Both Joseph Smith, as just explained, and Mohammed "confessed Yahweh", so that leaves your hypothesis a little high and dry, doesn't it?


 


>p


 





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