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Switch to Forum Live View To Those Who Say the Bible Is God's Word: Prove It
3 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2011 - 8:35PM #31
Peter_d_roman
Posts: 5,999

i feel much the same way-


 


as for the Father /Son / GOD   confusions- they  were  built up over the millennia by many of the same folks that gave us there bible to look to wrongfully calling it " the word of god".


 


liet me take  a tick and try to break it down for you-  i believe Yahweh created the earth and all that is good upon it LOOKING FOR HOPING  to have a creation that free will comes to love Him for Loves Sake alone.


 


when given a choice adam allowed evil into Our Fathers Creation here and then adam sad it was all eves fault.


 


it took Our Savior Brother to come here and do  all that He did do so that we all could become free of evils binds and unneeded suffering it creates for fun.


 


bible fans would have you believe the point to christian life is to say in sin , die and await "the second coming"-


 


i say the point tis o follow Our Savior Brothers  real time direction into the  New Life.


 


yes the Our Father and His Son Our Savior Brother are one in the same way a cup of hot water become tea when a tea bag is placed in its hot pot.


 


thanks for your kind reply.


 


>p


 


 


 


Jul 11, 2011 -- 7:14PM, genowharton wrote:


Personally I don't believe I will ever know the truths of what was written by the original ancient authors of the Bible because copyists never were faithful to write carbon copies of the original autographs of the authors, and translators are not consistant in their translations, possibly due to theological differences. Some say Jesus is God the Son, that the Father and the Son are one God. Others say Jesus is the Son of God, that only the Father is God. That is why I believe there are many modern translations of the Bible in English today. This is why I cannot accept the Bible as the inspired, infallible, inerrant, preserved, Word of God, because, unfortunately, it was edited and mistranslated, making it unreliable. The Bible is just an ancient historical document now, about people who claimed to had supernatural encounters with God, and they wrote about.





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3 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2011 - 3:19AM #32
Namchuck
Posts: 11,582

Jul 11, 2011 -- 7:14PM, genowharton wrote:


Personally I don't believe I will ever know the truths of what was written by the original ancient authors of the Bible because copyists never were faithful to write carbon copies of the original autographs of the authors, and translators are not consistant in their translations, possibly due to theological differences. Some say Jesus is God the Son, that the Father and the Son are one God. Others say Jesus is the Son of God, that only the Father is God. That is why I believe there are many modern translations of the Bible in English today. This is why I cannot accept the Bible as the inspired, infallible, inerrant, preserved, Word of God, because, unfortunately, it was edited and mistranslated, making it unreliable. The Bible is just an ancient historical document now, about people who claimed to had supernatural encounters with God, and they wrote about.





Good post, and I believe you are right in your conclusions.


If the Bible were really the work of a perfect and loving God, it would be obviously superlative in every respect to anything that could be conceived by human intellect alone. It would be accurate, concise, clear, and consistent throughout.


There is nothing more obvious than it is anything but these things.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2011 - 7:47AM #33
Peter_d_roman
Posts: 5,999

more true words / ideas can not be found in 90% of the bible- thanks.


 


>p


 


Jul 12, 2011 -- 3:19AM, Namchuck wrote:


Jul 11, 2011 -- 7:14PM, genowharton wrote:


Personally I don't believe I will ever know the truths of what was written by the original ancient authors of the Bible because copyists never were faithful to write carbon copies of the original autographs of the authors, and translators are not consistant in their translations, possibly due to theological differences. Some say Jesus is God the Son, that the Father and the Son are one God. Others say Jesus is the Son of God, that only the Father is God. That is why I believe there are many modern translations of the Bible in English today. This is why I cannot accept the Bible as the inspired, infallible, inerrant, preserved, Word of God, because, unfortunately, it was edited and mistranslated, making it unreliable. The Bible is just an ancient historical document now, about people who claimed to had supernatural encounters with God, and they wrote about.





Good post, and I believe you are right in your conclusions.


If the Bible were really the work of a perfect and loving God, it would be obviously superlative in every respect to anything that could be conceived by human intellect alone. It would be accurate, concise, clear, and consistent throughout.


There is nothing more obvious than it is anything but these things.





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3 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2011 - 3:06PM #34
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,653

The Bible: Self PROVING


Why do we Christ-followers consider the Bible the "words" of the TRI-UNE God?


Let's look at some of what the Bible / Scriptures has to say about itself:
(...sorry about stringing citations, but how else can you do it??)


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:
John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


2 Timothy 3
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,
     because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures,
     which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Peter 1:20,21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20,21


John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room
for the books that would be written.


Luke 24: 25-27...the post resurrection super BIBLE study
He (Jesus) said to them (disciples), "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken!
Did not the Christ (Messiah) have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets,
He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (soul + Spirit)



"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually discerned." SEE: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (NIV)

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2011 - 3:29PM #35
Peter_d_roman
Posts: 5,999

>p

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2011 - 5:20PM #36
Namchuck
Posts: 11,582

Sep 29, 2011 -- 3:06PM, Rgurley4 wrote:


The Bible: Self PROVING


Why do we Christ-followers consider the Bible the "words" of the TRI-UNE God?


Let's look at some of what the Bible / Scriptures has to say about itself:
(...sorry about stringing citations, but how else can you do it??)


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:
John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


2 Timothy 3
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,
     because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures,
     which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Peter 1:20,21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20,21


John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room
for the books that would be written.


Luke 24: 25-27...the post resurrection super BIBLE study
He (Jesus) said to them (disciples), "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken!
Did not the Christ (Messiah) have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets,
He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (soul + Spirit)



"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually discerned." SEE: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (NIV)





None of the above, of course, survives any close scrutiny.


It is simply too easy to select from those Bible passages that don't contradict and "string" together what appears to be a coherent message while ignoring all the ones that do betray such a consistency. It's hardly an honest approach to Bible study.


The last passage cited, 1 Cor. 2:13-15, is common enough in supposed "holy" writings and is designed only to hold otherwise insupportable teachings immune from criticsm, revision, and rejection.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 13, 2011 - 10:20PM #37
genowharton
Posts: 10

Sep 29, 2011 -- 3:06PM, Rgurley4 wrote:

The Bible: Self PROVING


Why do we Christ-followers consider the Bible the "words" of the TRI-UNE God?


Let's look at some of what the Bible / Scriptures has to say about itself:
(...sorry about stringing citations, but how else can you do it??)


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:
John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


2 Timothy 3
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,
     because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures,
     which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Peter 1:20,21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20,21


John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room
for the books that would be written.


Luke 24: 25-27...the post resurrection super BIBLE study
He (Jesus) said to them (disciples), "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken!
Did not the Christ (Messiah) have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets,
He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (soul + Spirit)



"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually discerned." SEE: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (NIV)


Since you quoted modern English Bibles and not any of the ancient Greek text before the 6th century AD, there is no way I can know if the quotes are what the ancient athors wrote or were edited or even added by copyists later.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 13, 2011 - 10:29PM #38
Peter_d_roman
Posts: 5,999

 


very excellent point!


 


of all the bible - old and new testaments- only the below and johns gosple  applies to all for all time.


 


31 "The day is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.32 This    covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I    took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They    broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,"    says the LORD.
  33 "But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day," says the LORD.    "I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them  on   their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.34 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already," says the LORD. "And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins." (Jeremiah 31, NLT, rse).


 


thanks for your reply


 


>p


 


 


Oct 13, 2011 -- 10:20PM, genowharton wrote:

Sep 29, 2011 -- 3:06PM, Rgurley4 wrote:


The Bible: Self PROVING


Why do we Christ-followers consider the Bible the "words" of the TRI-UNE God?


Let's look at some of what the Bible / Scriptures has to say about itself:
(...sorry about stringing citations, but how else can you do it??)


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:
John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


2 Timothy 3
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,
     because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures,
     which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Peter 1:20,21
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20,21


John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room
for the books that would be written.


Luke 24: 25-27...the post resurrection super BIBLE study
He (Jesus) said to them (disciples), "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken!
Did not the Christ (Messiah) have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets,
He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (soul + Spirit)



"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually discerned." SEE: 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (NIV)




Since you quoted modern English Bibles and not any of the ancient Greek text before the 6th century AD, there is no way I can know if the quotes are what the ancient athors wrote or were edited or even added by copyists later.





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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 11:07AM #39
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,653

Here are MY BELIEFS on the Bible, with emphasis on the New Testament.
These views  are those of most evangelical conservative Bible scholars. Most are backed by FACTS that are still being discovered. These FACTs shift the burden of proof for unbelievers to DISPROVE the Bible, primarily the New Testament Gospels and Acts,


My Christ-following VIEWS:


The Bible (Scripture) is the supreme authority when compared to other writings
and precepts.


All of the ACTUAL WORDS therein were "Spirit Inspired", and "superintended" by God.


The ~40 authors and their scribes recorded these words in "original manuscripts" which were without error.


Systematic study of Scripture leads one to the conclusion that it is God's supreme way of speaking to Man.



The "economy" or God's methods of relating to Man changed from Old Testament times to New Testament due to the historical appearance of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the God-Man.


The Bible as a piece of literature is withhout peer, and it has been miraculously preserved, translated, and distributed.


RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:



John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


Has the COLLECTION of books and letters as piece of literature that we called the New Testament passed acceptable TESTS to make it accurate enough to be BELIEVABLE?"


Similar to: " historically accurate?"


PRIMARY TESTS: Authenticity and Authority.



The first passing: all 27 books were accepted by the Council of Carthage, ~397 AD.
There are more than 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament....the best attested document of ALL ancient writings.
There are numerous fragments dating from ~135 -800 AD written on papyrus. There are hundreds of accurate parchment copies produced in the 4th-5th centuries. There are ~86,000 quotations in old Latin, Latin, Syriac, and Egyptian translations from the 3rd century. There is more scholarly work done on this piece of literature than any other in existence.(Ryrie 2084)


Conclusion: The New Testament translations in ANY version have been based on copious, reliable, accurate, authentic words from ~40 authors who were authorized and accepted "historians".


The BIBLE: Fact or Fiction??


Because there can never be "conclusive proof ", based on the criminal legal standard "beyond any reasonable doubt", of ANY historical series of events occurring THOUSANDS of years ago, the premise of proof of BIBLE FACTS: Yes or No is a false one.


The mere existence of millions of Christ-followers who BELIEVE the facts in the Bible is strong testimony to the truths therein. Others have attacked it, hoping to shake spiritual FAITH of its believers. This veiled attempt will not succeed either.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2011 - 11:22AM #40
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,653

Peter Peter...how can you pick and choose? A special spiritual discernment?


"...of all the bible - old and new testaments- only the below (extract) and johns gospel  applies to all for all time..."


John 21...the author of John's Gospel: Conclusion


24 This is the disciple who AJ)" class="xref">is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true.


 25 And there are also AK)" class="xref">many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.


 

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