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2 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2012 - 8:24PM #11
Lookbeyond
Posts: 578

I personally like the simple explanation of salvation presented by the Savior......death came into the world because of a broken law that afforded death as a consequence! Death was conquered through Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice for Adam's transgression! We ar eno longer victims of the grave with no hope beyond the grave. Resurrection from the grave was made possible by Jesus Christ, for all mankind.


Exaltation, requires faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice for our sins, allowing for us to receive forgiveness conditioned upon our repentance! Our obedience to gospel principles is a requirement if we desire to receive those blessings associated with the level of our obedience!


There is an absolute truth that will not change.....Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was sent to this earth to rescue fallen man from the grave and open the door to eternal salvation in the presence of God! It makes no difference what anyone believes or disbelieves....the truth will remain. God is the Father of our spirits! The spark of the divine within each of us allows us to become whatever our ambition will allow.....if we choose to follow the Light of Christ within, we will be empowered to understand all truth eventually through the power of the Holy Ghost!


I like the scripture that reads, "And this is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God, AND, Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent!"

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 16, 2012 - 2:51AM #12
Namchuck
Posts: 11,579

Mar 15, 2012 -- 8:24PM, Lookbeyond wrote:


I personally like the simple explanation of salvation presented by the Savior......death came into the world because of a broken law that afforded death as a consequence! Death was conquered through Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice for Adam's transgression! We ar eno longer victims of the grave with no hope beyond the grave. Resurrection from the grave was made possible by Jesus Christ, for all mankind.


Exaltation, requires faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice for our sins, allowing for us to receive forgiveness conditioned upon our repentance! Our obedience to gospel principles is a requirement if we desire to receive those blessings associated with the level of our obedience!


There is an absolute truth that will not change.....Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was sent to this earth to rescue fallen man from the grave and open the door to eternal salvation in the presence of God! It makes no difference what anyone believes or disbelieves....the truth will remain. God is the Father of our spirits! The spark of the divine within each of us allows us to become whatever our ambition will allow.....if we choose to follow the Light of Christ within, we will be empowered to understand all truth eventually through the power of the Holy Ghost!


I like the scripture that reads, "And this is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God, AND, Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent!"




That's all very fine, Lookbeyond, but it doesn't change the fact, as the Bible lucidly identifies, that its God is far from perfect. One is simply hiding one's head in the proverbial sand by simply ignoring all those scriptures that plainly demonstrate otherwise.


And it is not an "absolute truth...[that] Jesus Christ is the Son of God". That is a declaration of belief no different from, say, the Muslim's claim that Mohammed is the "fulfillment of the prophets". Neither assertion is an 'absolute truth'. They are declarations of belief, and one is simply playing fast and loose with the truth to claim that they are anything more than that.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 16, 2012 - 11:40AM #13
Lookbeyond
Posts: 578

A declaration of belief......as opposed to it being a truth....ummmmm! You know, I believe in God, my Eternal Father! I also KNOW that He is my Father....the Father of my spirit! Just as I know my father of my mortal body, so do I know the Father of my spirit! That you don't know does not make it an untruth! Truth is a constant and never changes.


You claim God is not perfect.....that does not make your claim a truth! That we can become perfect is inborn within each of us.....perfect in all things. Today I may be perfect in only a few things.....I do not commit adultery.....in that I am perfect. Accepting Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as my Savior...in that I am perfect for there is no doubt, for I know it to be so through the power and gift of the Holy Ghost! John 14:16-17; 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrances, whatsoever I have said unto you.


John 1:5."If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed......."


Faith preceeds the miracle of understanding!

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 17, 2012 - 3:05AM #14
Namchuck
Posts: 11,579

Mar 16, 2012 -- 11:40AM, Lookbeyond wrote:


A declaration of belief......as opposed to it being a truth....ummmmm! You know, I believe in God, my Eternal Father! I also KNOW that He is my Father....the Father of my spirit! Just as I know my father of my mortal body, so do I know the Father of my spirit! That you don't know does not make it an untruth! Truth is a constant and never changes.


No, you don't know any of that. You merely believe it. Nor is it an "absolute truth", something you wouldn't have claimed in the first place if you'd given it any thought. Absolute truth is not a private affair.


You claim God is not perfect.....that does not make your claim a truth!


I don't believe in your God at all, but based on the testimony of scripture, God is anything but "perfect", unless, that is, perfection includes genocidal rages, making bad mistakes, being temperamentally despotic, jealous, violent, petty, and murderous. 


That we can become perfect is inborn within each of us.....perfect in all things.


Where's the evidence for that? You certainly have a raft of beliefs, Lookbeyond, but very little of substance to support them.


Today I may be perfect in only a few things.....I do not commit adultery.....in that I am perfect.


You seem to be implying that the substance of perfection amounts to negative values. So, not committing, condoning, or ordering the slaying of people (and their animals) equates to perfection, does it? Then guess what, I'm more perfect than your supposed God!


Accepting Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as my Savior...in that I am perfect for there is no doubt, for I know it to be so through the power and gift of the Holy Ghost! John 14:16-17; 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrances, whatsoever I have said unto you.


While you undoubtedly possess a wobbly old notion of what constitutes perfection, you certainly do hold, as mentioned above, any number of unjustified beliefs.


There are people, you know, for whom knowledge is more compelling than mere belief. But I understand that not all people are so constituted. Some people are driven by a simple will to believe. For such people, religion fulfils a basic desire to be religious. Their faith is impregnable to fact, their belief impervious to mere truth.





Faith preceeds the miracle of understanding!


That is simply not true. In fact, the contrary seems to be the actual case state of affairs. Faith, like belief, conditions the understanding. It is not that understanding comes along to prove or confirm the faith, but that faith begets the understanding. Hence, faith leads not only to diffrent, but opposing religions. This is why faith is a sham and a delusion. To put it another way, faith is a perpetual motion machine for wishful thinking.  




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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:51AM #15
Estacia
Posts: 2,209

For those whom insist on pointing fingers at others beliefs and views, this question is much easier awnsered, There are some questions in life THAT CANNOT be awnsered.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 2:36AM #16
Namchuck
Posts: 11,579

Jun 4, 2012 -- 1:51AM, Estacia wrote:


For those whom insist on pointing fingers at others beliefs and views, this question is much easier awnsered, There are some questions in life THAT CANNOT be awnsered.





What questions, Estacia? I could think of a few like, say: Is there life on Mars?


Pretty silly thing to post if you're not willing to list at least a few of them.


Even given that there are as yet unanswered questions, how does that justify insupportable beliefs like the belief that dead people can rise from the grave, or that Jesus could satisfy the appetites of five thousand people with a single jam buttie?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 07, 2012 - 5:01PM #17
Dickey
Posts: 112

May 19, 2011 -- 7:14PM, Jabba wrote:

I've been doing some research about the idea of OSAS (once saved, always saved). I've come across many different sources, both in favor of OSAS and also against. From what I've researched, the various positions can be boiled down to one's view of salvation:  by grace or by works.

To me the Bible is clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

I'm curious what conclusions you have reached from your own study?


You are saved by Grace, and that through faith, not work so no man can boast.


If you have faith you will have works.


If you don't have works, you don't have faith.


Works don't save you, but you were saved to do good works.


If you aren't doing works, you aren't saved.


See 2 lines previous.


If you want the scripture, please ask, every line is paraphrase.



Second argument.

The very word AGAPAO does NOT NOT NOT mean God's love. 
Although it's true, God's love is Agapao, but not all Agapao is God's love.
Agapao was used for the RAPE in the OT, in the Greek written Septuagint (LXX)


AGAPAO to the authors at the time was an emotion that is acted upon.  Even in the bible/NT it was used for works against God.  They LOVED EVIL, it's even been used for sexual unions in texts.



So, AGAPAO requires works to even happen.


Consult last parable in matt 25, who goes to heaven, the ones that did the charitable works.
What Does Paul say in Gal 5:6?  The biggest theology argument of His day wasn't important, but Faith Working THROUGH LOVE!
How many times did Paul tell the people receiving his letters to continue to do good works.


If you claim to love neighbor and have no demonstrations of that love, you are a liar.


If you don't have LOVE right, you don't know God and He doesn't know you. 1 john 4:16-18.



Argument 3,


You are saved, which is atonement, but it's not the last step of a journey, it's the first step.  See Romans 6:22,


First you are freed from sin, that is atonement, or accepting his offer of Grace.


THEN you work at becoming a slave to Christ, which is interpreted in vs 16 as OBEDIENCE.


From obedience, not from being able to master obedience but from the efforts of obedience you receive a benefit, and that benefit leads to sanctification. 

You receive grace/atonement.


You struggle with an obedient lifestyle, (trials tribulations vss, new discipline/training in Hebrews 12)


You receive a benefit, (Gal 5:16, 1 john 3:9, 1 Peter 1:22)


The benefit leads to sanctification. (1 john 3:9, 5:18, 2:8, 3:6, romans 8:9a)



From the final sanctification forever you are His.  Before that point, even after atonement, but before the final sanctification, you can go away on your whims.


Final sanctification includes Christ circumcising the flesh from your person. 


And the Spirit indwells.  (col 2:11 and romans 8:9a)


And then you walk by the Spirit, (gal 5;16)


 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 6:40PM #18
Namchuck
Posts: 11,579

Whether or not Christians are saved by grace or works is something that believers have been disagreeing about - and sometimes killing each other over - for centuries. It's one of those inane arguments that contradictory scripture merely fuels. It is one of the nullities that characterises faith.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 3:32PM #19
five_point_dad
Posts: 3,517

      Jesus said, "Verily, verily, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life" (Jn. 5:24).  The word "hears" means to respond to a verbal command, not just listen to noise.  Someone who hears the gospel and respond to it, HAS (notice this is present tense) eternal life (life that has no end).  Just ponder for a moment that this passage teaches that eternal life is a present possession.  So, I have heard the gospel message and I have believed in Him so I now possess a life that will never end.  So, I would say that exegetically, eternal security is taught by this passage, though I would prefer the label "perseverance of the saints." 


    The verse goes on to say, "...shall not come into condemnation," which carries the idea of no longer on my way into condemnation but "...is passed from death unto life."  Here the tense of the verb changes to the aorist.  I have already been transferred (Greek word here is used for change of address).  I'm no longer residing in (the) death (definite article appears in the original language) but I am now residing in (the) life (definite article appears in the original language). 


    John Calvin, the great Swiss Reformer, once wrote, "Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone." 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 2:47AM #20
Namchuck
Posts: 11,579

Jun 12, 2012 -- 3:32PM, five_point_dad wrote:


      Jesus said, "Verily, verily, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life" (Jn. 5:24).  The word "hears" means to respond to a verbal command, not just listen to noise.  Someone who hears the gospel and respond to it, HAS (notice this is present tense) eternal life (life that has no end).  Just ponder for a moment that this passage teaches that eternal life is a present possession.  So, I have heard the gospel message and I have believed in Him so I now possess a life that will never end.  So, I would say that exegetically, eternal security is taught by this passage, though I would prefer the label "perseverance of the saints." 


    The verse goes on to say, "...shall not come into condemnation," which carries the idea of no longer on my way into condemnation but "...is passed from death unto life."  Here the tense of the verb changes to the aorist.  I have already been transferred (Greek word here is used for change of address).  I'm no longer residing in (the) death (definite article appears in the original language) but I am now residing in (the) life (definite article appears in the original language). 


    John Calvin, the great Swiss Reformer, once wrote, "Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone." 




Is that the same "great Swiss Reformer" John Calvin who had Servetus tortured, and eventually killed? Must have been inadvertently, huh?


As I said, Christians have been fighting and arguing and killing - and torturing -  each other over 'faith' and 'works' (and other mindless beliefs) for centuries, which appears even more grotesque given that the Bible doesn't agree with itself on the issue. This is obviously why the factions in the often violent dispute cherry-pick the tome in support of their favored nullity. 

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