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Switch to Forum Live View The Difficult Sayings of Jesus
4 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2011 - 9:11AM #11
teilhard
Posts: 51,373

Again, a VERY Good -- SCHOLARLY -- Summary of these Questions:


Jaroslav Pelikan, "The Emergence of The Catholic Tradition (100-600)."


Jan 27, 2011 -- 9:05AM, Dennis wrote:


Most scholarly books tend to speak of what the Ante-Nicean Fathers (ANF's) have to say about Jesus if they are pertinent, Mikey, but can you be more specific about what was in the book?


Incidentally, the ANF's have an interesting look at Jesus... earlychristianwritings.com is a good place to start. Many of the writings were also published in the "Loeb Classics." They are not the only views of Jesus, though. They are, to a large extent, what became the orthodoxy.


Dennis 


Jan 27, 2011 -- 8:08AM, Mikey345 wrote:


Hey,


Sorry I have been a lil busy.


Not too sure how this thread turned into the above. For starters the publisher is no vanity press, but has published at least 60 works of scholars.


 


As to the book, it is really interesting (at least for me), as it explores the very difficult sayings like "my father is greater than i" and the "kingdom of heaven suffers violence". These are difficulties that have always concerned me. What is different, is that here you find the views of not only modern biblical scholars, but also how those sayings were received by the earliest Christians (the Church Fathers) - something, to my knowledge, which has not been done before?









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4 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2011 - 9:15AM #12
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

As usual, you are off-topic, Teil. Pelikan has absolutely nothing to do with the original post.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2011 - 11:13AM #13
teilhard
Posts: 51,373

Pelikan Discusses The Church Fathers in DETAIL and also The Rise of Catholic Orthodoxy ...


Indeed, Thoughts and Discussions about "Jesus" are CENTRAL to these Questions ... THEN and NOW ...


Jan 27, 2011 -- 9:11AM, teilhard wrote:


Again, a VERY Good -- SCHOLARLY -- Summary of these Questions:


Jaroslav Pelikan, "The Emergence of The Catholic Tradition (100-600)."


Jan 27, 2011 -- 9:05AM, Dennis wrote:


Incidentally, the ANF's have an interesting look at Jesus... earlychristianwritings.com is a good place to start. Many of the writings were also published in the "Loeb Classics." They are not the only views of Jesus, though. They are, to a large extent, what became the orthodoxy.


Jan 27, 2011 -- 8:08AM, Mikey345 wrote:













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4 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 6:50AM #14
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Again, Mikey, could you be more specific about the book? I'm beginning to think you just wanted to plaster a picture of the cover of the book on the website... Did you write it and are you looking for publicity? Conversely, have you not read the book? Are you looking for people who have?


What makes sayings "difficult" could have to do with a number of factors - reading ability, particular translation of the text, and theological baggage that causes cognitive dissonance with a certain text are three that readily come to mind. The first two are fairly easily remedied. The third causes the most problem, mainly because of all the contradictory passages in the Christian Bible. One can rely on this lay person whose book you have mentioned, but there are a plethora of credentialed scholars, mostly Christians, many who besides being scholars are pastors (the aforementioned Pelikan was a Lutheran parson) that have quite a bit more credibility than a doctor who has taught Sunday school classes. (Note: No one who has posted on this forum is or comes close to being a biblical scholar. No one.) 


Anyway, I guess you were just passing through posting a more or less European Jesus face on the screen.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 7:08AM #15
Mikey345
Posts: 11

hi there,


 


sorry I havent go that much time check this every day.


 


As to your questions, I just happen to be a fan of patristics and biblical studies....so I thoroughly enjoy anything that brings them close - another fave author of mine is John Breck (scripture in tradition). As a newcomer to orthodoxy, Im a fan of the above. I am not sure why this thread has been prone to such heated discussion.


The book as far as I can tell (im no expert) also makes reference to fathers after nicea. One thing I very much liked was seeing the answer to the "kingdom of heaven suffers violence" which one side discusses the required "violent tribulation" of the eschaton that would see Jesus and John afflicted (the view of scholarship), whereas on the other saw the violence as the repentance of those seeking to violently enter the kingdom (church fathers). Needless to say each view is really reflective of the spiritual lives of the interpreters.


 


Interesting stuff. Just to let you know I will be away for a few days... Anyway have a look at the books preview, Id be interested to hear what over people think.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 10:37AM #16
teilhard
Posts: 51,373

(The Late) Rev. Prof. Dr. Jaroslav Pelikan was Professor of Religious Studies at Yale University ...


He was THE Foremost Teacher/Scholar of "The History of Christian Doctrine" in The 20th Century ...


Jan 28, 2011 -- 6:50AM, Dennis wrote:


 One can rely on this lay person whose book you have mentioned, but there are a plethora of credentialed scholars, mostly Christians, many who besides being scholars are pastors (the aforementioned Pelikan was a Lutheran parson) that have quite a bit more credibility than a doctor who has taught Sunday school classes.





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4 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 10:39AM #17
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Interesting. After Nicea was theology that doesn't really relate to the first century Judaism of the historical Jesus or to the variety of various Christianities, for want of better term, that one found in the first through third century (Valentinian, Ebionite, Marcionite, etc) but to the orthodoxy. So, in using those as sources, the "difficult sayings" are seen only through the eyes of the winners of the battle for orthodoxy. If one is content with Christianity as it is today, the book should be comforting to those. It will explain "difficult sayings" in the way that reinforces their beliefs, probably...


As far as "kingdom of god," from what we have it seems that many scholars believe that Jesus saw this as present, in the world, not as an apocalyptic event. (Many other scholars don't.) One generally sifts through the gospels. There is evidence to support either contention. There was an apocalyptic event in the early seventies, when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in the temple, one which resulted in a re-ordering of Judaism. If there were any "followers of Jesus" at this point they would have been Jews, and certainly this resulted in a re-thinking of their form of Judaism. It seems that all of the gospels were written between the last quarter of the first century and the first quarter of the second century, when this was on their mind, yet fading by the time one gets to a rather Roman apologetic Luke/Acts.


Where does the author stand in his view of the basilea (kingdom)? 


Dennis


Jan 28, 2011 -- 7:08AM, Mikey345 wrote:


hi there,


 


sorry I havent go that much time check this every day.


 


As to your questions, I just happen to be a fan of patristics and biblical studies....so I thoroughly enjoy anything that brings them close - another fave author of mine is John Breck (scripture in tradition). As a newcomer to orthodoxy, Im a fan of the above. I am not sure why this thread has been prone to such heated discussion.


The book as far as I can tell (im no expert) also makes reference to fathers after nicea. One thing I very much liked was seeing the answer to the "kingdom of heaven suffers violence" which one side discusses the required "violent tribulation" of the eschaton that would see Jesus and John afflicted (the view of scholarship), whereas on the other saw the violence as the repentance of those seeking to violently enter the kingdom (church fathers). Needless to say each view is really reflective of the spiritual lives of the interpreters.


 


Interesting stuff. Just to let you know I will be away for a few days... Anyway have a look at the books preview, Id be interested to hear what over people think.





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4 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 11:15AM #18
teilhard
Posts: 51,373

Interestingly, the aforementioned (Late) Rev. Prof. Dr. Pelikan made-the-Jump to "Light"-Speed, joining The Orthodox Church ...


The well-intended Search for The REAL "Jesus" is doomed to Failure, as is The Quest for THE Authentic Church ...


There are PROFOUND dis-Junctions of History, Culture, "World-View" in some of The Bible Stories that make "Modern" Folk SQUIRM ...


Jan 28, 2011 -- 10:39AM, Dennis wrote:


Interesting. After Nicea was theology that doesn't really relate to the first century Judaism of the historical Jesus or to the variety of various Christianities, for want of better term, that one found in the first through third century (Valentinian, Ebionite, Marcionite, etc) but to the orthodoxy. So, in using those as sources, the "difficult sayings" are seen only through the eyes of the winners of the battle for orthodoxy. If one is content with Christianity as it is today, the book should be comforting to those. It will explain "difficult sayings" in the way that reinforces their beliefs, probably...



 


Jan 28, 2011 -- 7:08AM, Mikey345 wrote:


 As to your questions, I just happen to be a fan of patristics and biblical studies....so I thoroughly enjoy anything that brings them close - another fave author of mine is John Breck (scripture in tradition). As a newcomer to orthodoxy, Im a fan of the above. I am not sure why this thread has been prone to such heated discussion.


The book as far as I can tell (im no expert) also makes reference to fathers after nicea. One thing I very much liked was seeing the answer to the "kingdom of heaven suffers violence" which one side discusses the required "violent tribulation" of the eschaton that would see Jesus and John afflicted (the view of scholarship), whereas on the other saw the violence as the repentance of those seeking to violently enter the kingdom (church fathers). Needless to say each view is really reflective of the spiritual lives of the interpreters.


 


Interesting stuff. Just to let you know I will be away for a few days... Anyway have a look at the books preview, Id be interested to hear what over people think.









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4 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 5:22PM #19
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Of course, Pelikan, who has been relegated to dusty shelves, was doomed to failure, which has nothing to do with this thread, and the quest for the historical Jesus continues unabated as it has for several hundred years, with important contributions by Ehrman, Crossan, Tabor, the Jesus Seminar, Borg, Thompson, Spong, the Society of Biblical Literature, Vermes, Eisenman, Ludemann, Goodacre, Chilton, Armstrong, Pagels, Carroll, Mack, Price, Patterson, MacDonald, Jill-Levine, Kloppenborg, and so on. In fact, biblical scholars have actually, in the last quarter of a century, written their share of best sellers, which means that, for probably the first time in history, this information is actually making it past the "sainted halls of churchdom" to the population in general... Yep, Pelikan was wrong. His books are dusted regularly by librarians. 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 6:37PM #20
teilhard
Posts: 51,373

LOL ... No ... Pelikan remains THE Authority in The History of Christian Doctrine ...


Jan 28, 2011 -- 5:22PM, Dennis wrote:


Of course, Pelikan, who has been relegated to dusty shelves, was doomed to failure, which has nothing to do with this thread, elikan was wrong. His books are dusted regularly by librarians. 





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