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Switch to Forum Live View The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ
4 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2011 - 4:18PM #1
Yoder777
Posts: 9

Christology too oftens neglects the Holy Spirit. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, anointed by the Spirit at his baptism, and worked miracles through the power of the Spirit. The Shepherd of Hermas, deemed authoritative by the early church, speaks of Jesus as divine in the sense that he mediates the Holy Spirit.



Another way to explain the divinity and humanity of Christ rests on the distinction between "flesh" and "spirit." For example, the earliest surviving Christian sermon, an early second-century book known as 2 Clement, tells us that "we ought so to think of Jesus Christ, as of God, as of the Judge of quick and dead....If Christ the Lord who saved us, being first spirit, then became flesh, and so called us, in like manner also shall we in this flesh receive our reward" (1.1; 9.5).


Similarly, The Shepherd of Hermas describes "the Holy Spirit that spake with you in the form of the Church...for that Spirit is the Son of God" (Sim. 9.1). This view is spelled out in more detail earlier in the book. As will be seen below, parts of this description seem to combine ideas that later would be identified as "binitarian" and "adoptionist."


The holy, pre-existent Spirit, that created every creature, God made to dwell in flesh, which He chose. This flesh, accordingly, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, was nobly subject to that Spirit, walking religiously and chastely, in no respect defiling the Spirit; and accordingly, after living excellently and purely, and after labouring and co-operating with the Spirit, and having in everything acted vigorously and courageously along with the Holy Spirit, He assumed it as a partner with it. For this conduct of the flesh pleased Him, because it was not defiled on the earth while having the Holy Spirit. He took, therefore, as fellow-councillors His Son and the glorious angels, in order that this flesh, which had been subject to the body without a fault, might have some place of tabernacle, and that it might not appear that the reward [of its servitude had been lost], for the flesh that has been found without spot or defilement, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, [will receive a reward] (Sim. 6.5).


The view that Jesus first existed as a spirit or the Holy Spirit, then "became flesh," was one way to think of his divine origin and his human existence.


www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity1...



 


The New Testament uses the terms "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" interchangeably. This might suggest that the first Christians understood the Holy Spirit as the continuing presence of Christ in the world. Pentecost is such a monumental event because, by ascending into heaven, Jesus transcends the limits of space and time, pouring out himself upon the whole world.


 


Romans 8:9


But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


 


Galatians 4:6


And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


 


Philippians 1:19


For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ


 


1 Peter 1:11


Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


 


John 14:16-18


And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you.


 


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4 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2011 - 6:09PM #2
Yoder777
Posts: 9

This sermon explains what I have been saying:


May 31, 2009 Pentecost Sermon 


Marcus Borg


www.trinity-episcopal.org/08TrinitySite/...


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2011 - 7:36PM #3
teilhard
Posts: 51,110

The Early Christians understood that The Spirit DID speak for "Christ," Who continued to Instruct and Guide The Church ...

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2011 - 6:53AM #4
Dennis
Posts: 1,433
Of course, none of that has anything to do with the historical Jesus.
1. I don't know where you had your sexual education, but Jesus was conceived by a mommy and a daddy.... And, don't tell me that spirit is spirt with an extra "i"!!!! That's just disgusting!
2. "Anointed?" Well, if he was "conceived" in the holy spirit cabbage patch, as the Alabama sex ed class probably taught, he didn't need to be anointed!!! If he needed to be "anointed," he certainly wasn't "conceived by" a holy spirit!
3. Miracles? One didn't need a holy spirit to perform magic.

Jan 17, 2011 -- 4:18PM, Yoder777 wrote:


Christology too oftens neglects the Holy Spirit. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, anointed by the Spirit at his baptism, and worked miracles through the power of the Spirit. The Shepherd of Hermas, deemed authoritative by the early church, speaks of Jesus as divine in the sense that he mediates the Holy Spirit.



Another way to explain the divinity and humanity of Christ rests on the distinction between "flesh" and "spirit." For example, the earliest surviving Christian sermon, an early second-century book known as 2 Clement, tells us that "we ought so to think of Jesus Christ, as of God, as of the Judge of quick and dead....If Christ the Lord who saved us, being first spirit, then became flesh, and so called us, in like manner also shall we in this flesh receive our reward" (1.1; 9.5).


Similarly, The Shepherd of Hermas describes "the Holy Spirit that spake with you in the form of the Church...for that Spirit is the Son of God" (Sim. 9.1). This view is spelled out in more detail earlier in the book. As will be seen below, parts of this description seem to combine ideas that later would be identified as "binitarian" and "adoptionist."


The holy, pre-existent Spirit, that created every creature, God made to dwell in flesh, which He chose. This flesh, accordingly, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, was nobly subject to that Spirit, walking religiously and chastely, in no respect defiling the Spirit; and accordingly, after living excellently and purely, and after labouring and co-operating with the Spirit, and having in everything acted vigorously and courageously along with the Holy Spirit, He assumed it as a partner with it. For this conduct of the flesh pleased Him, because it was not defiled on the earth while having the Holy Spirit. He took, therefore, as fellow-councillors His Son and the glorious angels, in order that this flesh, which had been subject to the body without a fault, might have some place of tabernacle, and that it might not appear that the reward [of its servitude had been lost], for the flesh that has been found without spot or defilement, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, [will receive a reward] (Sim. 6.5).


The view that Jesus first existed as a spirit or the Holy Spirit, then "became flesh," was one way to think of his divine origin and his human existence.


www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity1...



 


The New Testament uses the terms "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" interchangeably. This might suggest that the first Christians understood the Holy Spirit as the continuing presence of Christ in the world. Pentecost is such a monumental event because, by ascending into heaven, Jesus transcends the limits of space and time, pouring out himself upon the whole world.


 


Romans 8:9


But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


 


Galatians 4:6


And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


 


Philippians 1:19


For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ


 


1 Peter 1:11


Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


 


John 14:16-18


And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you.


 





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4 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2011 - 2:12PM #5
teilhard
Posts: 51,110
The Early Church clearly understood The Resurrected-Ascended LORD Jesus Christ to Be ONE and The SAME with  The (so-called) "Historical"  "Jesus of Nazareth," the son of Mary ...

Their Understanding -- and Experience !!! -- was that The LORD Christ continued to speak to, to instruct, to guide The Church VIA The Holy Spirit, especially speaking through The Gift of Prophecy ...

One may argue -- especially the "Modern-ist" Skeptic-Scoffer-"Material-ist" WILL argue -- with that Understanding, but that IS what The Church UNDERSTOOD to be the Case ...
 ... and THAT Understanding is clearly reflected in The Sacred Texts of The First-Century Canonical Greek Testament ...
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 05, 2011 - 7:39AM #6
Dennis
Posts: 1,433
Yep, the early Church had shed its "historical Jesus skin" for a Mystery religion version of something they called, actually using it as a proper name, "Christ." If anyone wants to check out the angst they had, one can read some of the writings of the early Church Daddys trying to figure out how to make Jesus a three pronged godhead, sort of like a Medussa. It is rather silly, if one just looks at the early Christian writings, but if one gets a book that explains the Mystery Religions (several were written in the last century, one in particular by Samuel Angus is good), one can see how this Christ skin was largely a product of syncretism and first compromising and then just ridding the early "Christians" of a historical Jesus, since all Christianity needed was a "Jewish history." The rituals and beliefs came straight from Greco-Roman religion, whether it was the eucharist or the way Jesus became interpreted as a god. Therefore, scholars work to see what a Jewish Jesus, a human NOT just another Roman god (as Christians really, whether they know it or not, believe), said and did that made him stand out in a crowd. Tough work, but the real scholars do it, not because they are on some kind of "materialist" mission but because they are dedicated Christians who actually understand history... Unlike what we find, for instance, in posts below! 

Feb 4, 2011 -- 2:12PM, teilhard wrote:

The Early Church clearly understood The Resurrected-Ascended LORD Jesus Christ to Be ONE and The SAME with  The (so-called) "Historical"  "Jesus of Nazareth," the son of Mary ...

Their Understanding -- and Experience !!! -- was that The LORD Christ continued to speak to, to instruct, to guide The Church VIA The Holy Spirit, especially speaking through The Gift of Prophecy ...

One may argue -- especially the "Modern-ist" Skeptic-Scoffer-"Material-ist" WILL argue -- with that Understanding, but that IS what The Church UNDERSTOOD to be the Case ...
 ... and THAT Understanding is clearly reflected in The Sacred Texts of The First-Century Canonical Greek Testament ...




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4 years ago  ::  Feb 05, 2011 - 9:03AM #7
teilhard
Posts: 51,110
No ...
The Early Church continued The Faith of Israel, i.e., that "God" IS Active in The Actual Events of "History" -- in Human Lives -- Calling, Creating, Redeeming, Healing, Promising, Fulfilling ...

Now, certainly one can argue that such Notions are Silly, or whatever ... The Skeptics, Scoffers, and "Material-ists" MUST do so, by REFLEX, as a CENTRAL Act of THEIR deeply held Faith ...

Feb 5, 2011 -- 7:39AM, Dennis wrote:

Yep, the early Church had shed its "historical Jesus skin" for a Mystery religion version of something they called, actually using it as a proper name, "Christ." If anyone wants to check out the angst they had, one can read some of the writings of the early Church Daddys trying to figure out how to make Jesus a three pronged godhead, sort of like a Medussa. It is rather silly, if one just looks at the early Christian writings, but if one gets a book that explains the Mystery Religions (several were written in the last century, one in particular by Samuel Angus is good), one can see how this Christ skin was largely a product of syncretism and first compromising and then just ridding the early "Christians" of a historical Jesus, since all Christianity needed was a "Jewish history." The rituals and beliefs came straight from Greco-Roman religion, whether it was the eucharist or the way Jesus became interpreted as a god. Therefore, scholars work to see what a Jewish Jesus, a human NOT just another Roman god (as Christians really, whether they know it or not, believe), said and did that made him stand out in a crowd. Tough work, but the real scholars do it, not because they are on some kind of "materialist" mission but because they are dedicated Christians who actually understand history... Unlike what we find, for instance, in posts below! 

Feb 4, 2011 -- 2:12PM, teilhard wrote:

The Early Church clearly understood The Resurrected-Ascended LORD Jesus Christ to Be ONE and The SAME with  The (so-called) "Historical"  "Jesus of Nazareth," the son of Mary ...

Their Understanding -- and Experience !!! -- was that The LORD Christ continued to speak to, to instruct, to guide The Church VIA The Holy Spirit, especially speaking through The Gift of Prophecy ...

One may argue -- especially the "Modern-ist" Skeptic-Scoffer-"Material-ist" WILL argue -- with that Understanding, but that IS what The Church UNDERSTOOD to be the Case ...
 ... and THAT Understanding is clearly reflected in The Sacred Texts of The First-Century Canonical Greek Testament ...







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4 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2011 - 12:54PM #8
Dennis
Posts: 1,433
Baloney! That is a purely supersessionist look at the early church, quite a anti-Semitic look, actually... The early church "continued" nothing. The Faith of Israel was continued by the sage, the rabbis who were responsible for the Talmudic writings of the second through the sixth century... The early church turned Jesus into a space mangod, a silly little dying and rising god like Mithra and Attis. Quit spreading supersessionist garbage.


Feb 5, 2011 -- 9:03AM, teilhard wrote:

No ...
The Early Church continued The Faith of Israel, i.e., that "God" IS Active in The Actual Events of "History" -- in Human Lives -- Calling, Creating, Redeeming, Healing, Promising, Fulfilling ...

Now, certainly one can argue that such Notions are Silly, or whatever ... The Skeptics, Scoffers, and "Material-ists" MUST do so, by REFLEX, as a CENTRAL Act of THEIR deeply held Faith ...

Feb 5, 2011 -- 7:39AM, Dennis wrote:

Yep, the early Church had shed its "historical Jesus skin" for a Mystery religion version of something they called, actually using it as a proper name, "Christ." If anyone wants to check out the angst they had, one can read some of the writings of the early Church Daddys trying to figure out how to make Jesus a three pronged godhead, sort of like a Medussa. It is rather silly, if one just looks at the early Christian writings, but if one gets a book that explains the Mystery Religions (several were written in the last century, one in particular by Samuel Angus is good), one can see how this Christ skin was largely a product of syncretism and first compromising and then just ridding the early "Christians" of a historical Jesus, since all Christianity needed was a "Jewish history." The rituals and beliefs came straight from Greco-Roman religion, whether it was the eucharist or the way Jesus became interpreted as a god. Therefore, scholars work to see what a Jewish Jesus, a human NOT just another Roman god (as Christians really, whether they know it or not, believe), said and did that made him stand out in a crowd. Tough work, but the real scholars do it, not because they are on some kind of "materialist" mission but because they are dedicated Christians who actually understand history... Unlike what we find, for instance, in posts below! 

Feb 4, 2011 -- 2:12PM, teilhard wrote:

The Early Church clearly understood The Resurrected-Ascended LORD Jesus Christ to Be ONE and The SAME with  The (so-called) "Historical"  "Jesus of Nazareth," the son of Mary ...

Their Understanding -- and Experience !!! -- was that The LORD Christ continued to speak to, to instruct, to guide The Church VIA The Holy Spirit, especially speaking through The Gift of Prophecy ...

One may argue -- especially the "Modern-ist" Skeptic-Scoffer-"Material-ist" WILL argue -- with that Understanding, but that IS what The Church UNDERSTOOD to be the Case ...
 ... and THAT Understanding is clearly reflected in The Sacred Texts of The First-Century Canonical Greek Testament ...










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4 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2011 - 1:11PM #9
teilhard
Posts: 51,110
Nope ...

The "Christian" Faith Tradition INCLUDES and TREASURES The Sacred Texts of ISRAEL as "Canonical Scriptures" ...

Eucharist / Passover and Baptism / Circumcision ...

"The Ten Words" ... The Weekly Lectionary ...

My Goodness ... !!!  You really have NO Direct Experienced Knowledge of these Things ... ???

You STILL Imagine The Historical Lord Jesus (The Christ) of Nazareth and His Apostles as ... "Swedish Methodists from Iowa" -- rather than Observant "Ioudaioi" ... ???

What is that (REALLY) about ... ???  At every turn you seem determined to De-Legitimize The Catholic Faith ...

Feb 7, 2011 -- 12:54PM, Dennis wrote:



That is a purely supersessionist look at the early church, quite a anti-Semitic look, actually... The early church "continued" nothing. The Faith of Israel was continued by the sage, the rabbis who were responsible for the Talmudic writings of the second through the sixth century...


Feb 5, 2011 -- 9:03AM, teilhard wrote:

No ...
The Early Church continued The Faith of Israel, i.e., that "God" IS Active in The Actual Events of "History" -- in Human Lives -- Calling, Creating, Redeeming, Healing, Promising, Fulfilling ...

Now, certainly one can argue that such Notions are Silly, or whatever ... The Skeptics, Scoffers, and "Material-ists" MUST do so, by REFLEX, as a CENTRAL Act of THEIR deeply held Faith ...

Feb 5, 2011 -- 7:39AM, Dennis wrote:

Yep, the early Church had shed its "historical Jesus skin" for a Mystery religion version of something they called, actually using it as a proper name, "Christ." If anyone wants to check out the angst they had, one can read some of the writings of the early Church Daddys trying to figure out how to make Jesus a three pronged godhead, sort of like a Medussa. It is rather silly, if one just looks at the early Christian writings, but if one gets a book that explains the Mystery Religions (several were written in the last century, one in particular by Samuel Angus is good), one can see how this Christ skin was largely a product of syncretism and first compromising and then just ridding the early "Christians" of a historical Jesus, since all Christianity needed was a "Jewish history." The rituals and beliefs came straight from Greco-Roman religion, whether it was the eucharist or the way Jesus became interpreted as a god. Therefore, scholars work to see what a Jewish Jesus, a human NOT just another Roman god (as Christians really, whether they know it or not, believe), said and did that made him stand out in a crowd. Tough work, but the real scholars do it, not because they are on some kind of "materialist" mission but because they are dedicated Christians who actually understand history... Unlike what we find, for instance, in posts below! 

Feb 4, 2011 -- 2:12PM, teilhard wrote:

The Early Church clearly understood The Resurrected-Ascended LORD Jesus Christ to Be ONE and The SAME with  The (so-called) "Historical"  "Jesus of Nazareth," the son of Mary ...

Their Understanding -- and Experience !!! -- was that The LORD Christ continued to speak to, to instruct, to guide The Church VIA The Holy Spirit, especially speaking through The Gift of Prophecy ...

One may argue -- especially the "Modern-ist" Skeptic-Scoffer-"Material-ist" WILL argue -- with that Understanding, but that IS what The Church UNDERSTOOD to be the Case ...
 ... and THAT Understanding is clearly reflected in The Sacred Texts of The First-Century Canonical Greek Testament ...













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4 years ago  ::  Feb 09, 2011 - 6:46AM #10
Dennis
Posts: 1,433
The eucharist is abhorrent to any Jewish practice. The Christian baptism is an initiation rite from the Mystery religions. It is not the Jewish purification rite. Circumcision and Passover? Jewish, not Xian. My Goodness!!! You have not even read enough to know that! Oh, that's right. You are completely dependent on a weekly lectionary and a fusty supersessionist anti-Semitic Catholic Lutheran holiness fundamentalism!

Feb 7, 2011 -- 1:11PM, teilhard wrote:

Nope ...

The "Christian" Faith Tradition INCLUDES and TREASURES The Sacred Texts of ISRAEL as "Canonical Scriptures" ...

Eucharist / Passover and Baptism / Circumcision ...

"The Ten Words" ... The Weekly Lectionary ...

My Goodness ... !!!  You really have NO Direct Experienced Knowledge of these Things ... ???

You STILL Imagine The Historical Lord Jesus (The Christ) of Nazareth and His Apostles as ... "Swedish Methodists from Iowa" -- rather than Observant "Ioudaioi" ... ???

What is that (REALLY) about ... ???  At every turn you seem determined to De-Legitimize The Catholic Faith ...

Feb 7, 2011 -- 12:54PM, Dennis wrote:



That is a purely supersessionist look at the early church, quite a anti-Semitic look, actually... The early church "continued" nothing. The Faith of Israel was continued by the sage, the rabbis who were responsible for the Talmudic writings of the second through the sixth century...


Feb 5, 2011 -- 9:03AM, teilhard wrote:

No ...
The Early Church continued The Faith of Israel, i.e., that "God" IS Active in The Actual Events of "History" -- in Human Lives -- Calling, Creating, Redeeming, Healing, Promising, Fulfilling ...

Now, certainly one can argue that such Notions are Silly, or whatever ... The Skeptics, Scoffers, and "Material-ists" MUST do so, by REFLEX, as a CENTRAL Act of THEIR deeply held Faith ...

Feb 5, 2011 -- 7:39AM, Dennis wrote:

Yep, the early Church had shed its "historical Jesus skin" for a Mystery religion version of something they called, actually using it as a proper name, "Christ." If anyone wants to check out the angst they had, one can read some of the writings of the early Church Daddys trying to figure out how to make Jesus a three pronged godhead, sort of like a Medussa. It is rather silly, if one just looks at the early Christian writings, but if one gets a book that explains the Mystery Religions (several were written in the last century, one in particular by Samuel Angus is good), one can see how this Christ skin was largely a product of syncretism and first compromising and then just ridding the early "Christians" of a historical Jesus, since all Christianity needed was a "Jewish history." The rituals and beliefs came straight from Greco-Roman religion, whether it was the eucharist or the way Jesus became interpreted as a god. Therefore, scholars work to see what a Jewish Jesus, a human NOT just another Roman god (as Christians really, whether they know it or not, believe), said and did that made him stand out in a crowd. Tough work, but the real scholars do it, not because they are on some kind of "materialist" mission but because they are dedicated Christians who actually understand history... Unlike what we find, for instance, in posts below! 

Feb 4, 2011 -- 2:12PM, teilhard wrote:

The Early Church clearly understood The Resurrected-Ascended LORD Jesus Christ to Be ONE and The SAME with  The (so-called) "Historical"  "Jesus of Nazareth," the son of Mary ...

Their Understanding -- and Experience !!! -- was that The LORD Christ continued to speak to, to instruct, to guide The Church VIA The Holy Spirit, especially speaking through The Gift of Prophecy ...

One may argue -- especially the "Modern-ist" Skeptic-Scoffer-"Material-ist" WILL argue -- with that Understanding, but that IS what The Church UNDERSTOOD to be the Case ...
 ... and THAT Understanding is clearly reflected in The Sacred Texts of The First-Century Canonical Greek Testament ...
















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