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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 12:58PM #1
teilhard
Posts: 49,975

from Pichas Lapide, "The Resurrection of Jesus: A Jewish Perspective." (1983, Augsburg) ...


p. 92 ...


"Thus, according to my opinion, the resurrection [of Jesus of Nazareth] belongs to the category of the truly real and effective occurances, for without a fact of history there is no act of true faith. A fact which is indeed withheld from objective science, photography, and a conceptual proof, but not from the believing scritiny of history which more frequently leads to deeper insights."


Rabbi Prof. Dr. Lapide -- an Orthodox Scholar !!! --  IOW, AFFIRMS both the essential Historicity and the Legitimacy of the outgrowth of the Christian Faith Tradition from The Faith of Israel ...

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2011 - 3:28PM #2
teilhard
Posts: 49,975

more from Lapide, op. cit., p. 93 --


"Certainly the glad tidings are not without textual incongruities -- if one forgets that the truth of faith and the reality of knowledge operate on two different planes which can be harmonized only by genuine sensitivity.


No wonder that the evangelists' contradictory reports of the resurrection have not been able to convince the skeptics, that agnostics write off all narratives as fairy tales of the nursery, and that the purely historical result for sober scientists is extremely meager.


However, legends can also be bearers of truths, which by no means deprive the kernal of the narrative of its historicity, as any scholar of religion will bear out."


 


Any "Jewish" Biblical Scholar -- such as Lapide -- indeed KNOWS full well that The Sacred Texts, with Their Mix of Stories, Hymns, Mysteries, Histories, Faith Affirmations, Legends and Community Rules, can NEVER be handled as an all-or-nothing Book-of-Facts ...


 


AND ... (generally) "Jewish" Scholars and Rabbis are NOT Anti-Christian ...

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2011 - 8:30PM #3
Alive2
Posts: 14

If we agree that belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. We could explore the Divinty of Jesus from our source materials.


 


It would also helpful if we agreed that belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the way of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the way of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. We believe truth, admire beauty, and reverences goodness, but we do not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone.

"Jesus: Don't Leave Earth Without Him"
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2011 - 1:53PM #4
Oddray
Posts: 30,362

i rarely come to the forums because mostly it seems filled with anger and intolerance but i came across your comments here this morning and had to say that i love your distinction between belief and faith!  thank you, and do i have your permission to borrow that - with credit to yourself of course?

"Gratitude is the music of the heart its chords swept by the breeze of kindness"
~Author unknown~
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2011 - 3:35PM #5
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Perhaps faith is considered by some to be expanding because it encompasses everything without proof. It is a product of one's imagination. The imagination is, indeed, expanding and releasing. It liberates one from reason and judgment. We see this in the fundamentalism of the Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism), in the way that adherents can murder with moral conviction because of the faith that their views are the only correct views of their god. Theirs is a "genuine personal religious experience," therefore this faith circumvents any moral teachings that (for instance) murder is bad. 


All credentialed Jewish and Christian scholars I have read believe that there was probably a historical Jesus who made an impact on the world. (I only say probably because none take an "all or none" stance.) What exactly makes the author in the original post any different? There is absolutely nothing in the original post that is even controversial. David Flusser, Amy Jill Levine or Jacob Neusner are probably more relevant Jewish scholars, as far as historical Jesus studies go.  


Jan 12, 2011 -- 8:30PM, Alive2 wrote:


If we agree that belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. We could explore the Divinty of Jesus from our source materials.


 


It would also helpful if we agreed that belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the way of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the way of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. We believe truth, admire beauty, and reverences goodness, but we do not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone.





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4 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2011 - 5:23PM #6
teilhard
Posts: 49,975

No ... In Classical Christian Understanding, "Faith" is:


(1) Knowledge -- of "God" ...


(2) Assent -- to "God"...


(3) Trust -- in "God" ...


It isn't ABOUT "Imagination" OR "Proof" ...


Jan 13, 2011 -- 3:35PM, Dennis wrote:


Perhaps faith is considered by some to be expanding because it encompasses everything without proof. It is a product of one's imagination.


Jan 12, 2011 -- 8:30PM, Alive2 wrote:


If we agree that belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. We could explore the Divinty of Jesus from our source materials.


 


It would also helpful if we agreed that belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the way of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the way of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. We believe truth, admire beauty, and reverences goodness, but we do not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone.









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4 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2011 - 5:51PM #7
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

As I said, imagination! Why are you so afraid of imagination? If you think of "heaven" and "hell" figuratively, as you stated in a different thread, surely this god stuff doesn't matter! "God" is also a figurative representation in words of the ineffable. (I believe most Jewish scholars realized that several millennia ago, when they looked to allegory to understand the scriptures.)  Imagination is great. It produced the gods. It produces hope. It can have a down side, though, as I mentioned.  


Jan 13, 2011 -- 5:23PM, teilhard wrote:


No ... In Classical Christian Understanding, "Faith" is:


(1) Knowledge -- of "God" ...


(2) Assent -- to "God"...


(3) Trust -- in "God" ...


It isn't ABOUT "Imagination" OR "Proof" ...


Jan 13, 2011 -- 3:35PM, Dennis wrote:


Perhaps faith is considered by some to be expanding because it encompasses everything without proof. It is a product of one's imagination.


Jan 12, 2011 -- 8:30PM, Alive2 wrote:


If we agree that belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. We could explore the Divinty of Jesus from our source materials.


 


It would also helpful if we agreed that belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the way of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the way of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. We believe truth, admire beauty, and reverences goodness, but we do not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone.













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4 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2011 - 11:00PM #8
teilhard
Posts: 49,975

Nope ...


"Faith" is always FAR more than (simply) "Imagination" ... It is ALWAYS part-parcel of Deep REFLECTION ...


Yes, "Theologies" and CONFESSIONS of "Faith" are indeed often (VERY!!!) "Imaginative," but They are ALWAYS about some Genuine Objective Referent(s) -- "God," Life, The Universe, and EVERYTHING ...


They're DEEPLY "Existential" in Character ... PERSONAL ... HUMAN ...


That is the Case for The Faith of Israel, and later, for The Faith of The Church, which is deeply ROOTED in The Faith of Israel ...


Jan 13, 2011 -- 5:51PM, Dennis wrote:


As I said, imagination!


 It produced the gods.  


Jan 13, 2011 -- 5:23PM, teilhard wrote:


No ... In Classical Christian Understanding, "Faith" is:


(1) Knowledge -- of "God" ...


(2) Assent -- to "God"...


(3) Trust -- in "God" ...


It isn't ABOUT "Imagination" OR "Proof" ...


Jan 13, 2011 -- 3:35PM, Dennis wrote:


Perhaps faith is considered by some to be expanding because it encompasses everything without proof. It is a product of one's imagination.


Jan 12, 2011 -- 8:30PM, Alive2 wrote:


If we agree that belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. We could explore the Divinty of Jesus from our source materials.


 


It would also helpful if we agreed that belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the way of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the way of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. We believe truth, admire beauty, and reverences goodness, but we do not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone.

















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4 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2011 - 6:47AM #9
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Certainly, religious faith, faith in some Dead Beat Dad they call "Our Father who is in heaven," is a product of the imagination... A rather weak product, one which is found in the morally inbred and the dull witted, the slow minded. Their imagination has to "fix" upon already existent ideas in order to find some hope in life, or generally life after death, since life is so pathetic for them.


It is for those who don't have faith in themselves, faith to overcome obstacles, to succeed in the world, to be a moral and good person without the conjuring of the Dead Beat Dad to look over their collective shoulders, shoulders burdened by the lack of a "backbone," the lack of self-reliance.


Of course, that is just my kind version of the faithful. You probably don't want to read my harsh version.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2011 - 9:03AM #10
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,923

Jan 15, 2011 -- 6:47AM, Dennis wrote:


.........................................Of course, that is just my kind version of the faithful. You probably don't want to read my harsh version.


 




Aw, come on Dennis. Don't hold back.  Wink

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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