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4 years ago  ::  Jul 23, 2010 - 10:09AM #1
Markezuma
Posts: 289

I have been interested in Islam for much of my adult life. I have read the Koran once before in English translation in its entirety. I am reading a different translation this time (The Koran Interpreted   A. J. Arberry) and learning what I can from such a work (My Arabic is not sufficient to read the original). So far I have one big question. Are there any parts of the Koran that are considered more important like the Ten Commandment and the Sermon on the Mount are in the Bible? Or should I read all surahs as equally inspired and informative? Thank you and Salam.

"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2010 - 5:17PM #2
Ibn
Posts: 4,402

Jul 23, 2010 -- 10:09AM, Markezuma wrote:


I have been interested in Islam for much of my adult life. I have read the Koran once before in English translation in its entirety. I am reading a different translation this time (The Koran Interpreted   A. J. Arberry) and learning what I can from such a work (My Arabic is not sufficient to read the original). So far I have one big question. Are there any parts of the Koran that are considered more important like the Ten Commandment and the Sermon on the Mount are in the Bible? Or should I read all surahs as equally inspired and informative? Thank you and Salam.





Peace


I can read Arabic but can't understand some of it. Therefore, I rely much on translations in English and Urdu.


Every Verse of the Qur'an is important. There is nothing in the Qur'an that is useless.


The Qur'an is not a book that is like a story book, that is in a sequence.


In general term, the first Surah is essence of the Qur'an and to understand it fully one has to read the whole Qur'an. Then the picture becomes clear.


The next few chapters are mainly about the laws. You can generally regard them as Commandments. Most of the rest is educational and wisdom.


One reading or one translation is not enough. The Qur'an is a Book that is to be read again and again and each time one can learn something new. I had read it six times yet I still found something new in it when I read it the seventh time. 


You may read another translation as well as search the words or topics you are interested in on the internet from various translations.


I hope that would help you.


By the way, I don't think Ten Commandment and Sermon on the Mount would be considered more important. Every word of Jesus is important. Nothing he said is less important. "Take this cup from me, not that my will be done but yours" or to that effect is pure Islam. "Keep the Commandments if you want to achieve salvation (eternal life)" is the essence of both the Biblical and Qur'anic Message.


Peace


Ibn

I know one thing: There are a billion Islamic people in the world today, and there will be about 2 billion by the time we're dead. They're not going to give up their religion.
(Chris Matthews)
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2010 - 6:51PM #3
Markezuma
Posts: 289

Thank you Ibn. I agree that there is much hamony between the Bible and the Koran and recognize that there is a lifetime of study in each. My theological perspectives are very unorthodox for a Christian in part because I take the Koran very seriously. I wonder for instance whether it is possible to remain a Christian and at the same time avoid association (shirk). I also like the way the Koran gives me new insights about Jesus. I will continue to read it and very much like to discuss what I read so it really sinks in.

"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2010 - 11:23AM #4
world citizen
Posts: 5,390

Dear Ibn ~


It is so good to see you once again at Beliefnet, my friend!  I don't want to interrupt this discussion but HAD to say hello to you.  Markezuma, you are indeed fortunate to have made contact with this wonderful soul to help guide you through the divinely revealed Qur'an.


Ba eltimaas e doa, dear Ibn...  WC

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2010 - 3:50PM #5
Markezuma
Posts: 289

I ran across a verse today for which I need the context. It's in surah 16 (The Bee) around 60-65.


The Arberry reads, "They assign to God that they themselves dislike."


And the Dawood say "They foist upon God what they themselves abhor."


Is this refering to a specific idea that the unbelievers attributed to God because they didn't like it or believe it themselves? Further is it an idea that the prophet was actually teaching or was it something they made up to try to make the faith look bad?

"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
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4 years ago  ::  Sep 12, 2010 - 2:00PM #6
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Jul 23, 2010 -- 10:09AM, Markezuma wrote:


I have been interested in Islam for much of my adult life. I have read the Koran once before in English translation in its entirety. I am reading a different translation this time (The Koran Interpreted   A. J. Arberry) and learning what I can from such a work (My Arabic is not sufficient to read the original). So far I have one big question. Are there any parts of the Koran that are considered more important like the Ten Commandment and the Sermon on the Mount are in the Bible? Or should I read all surahs as equally inspired and informative? Thank you and Salam.




 


Salaam


the rulings and commandments of the Quran needs a contextual scholarly deduction, hence such aspects dont apply to a non-Muslim or a laymen [in regards to Islamic knolwledge] anyway thus you can read any part of the Quran you like, but normally a Muslim will start from the beginning and read on thus untill they get ot the end; once they have finished reading the whole Quran, they can start the same again or choose what chapter they want to read


thus for you my friend i think it will be best to read it from the begining to the end and in this way you'd be able to get a basic understanding of the simple realities adressed in the Quran from start to finish


for the indepth interpretation, you can look it up on the following site:


www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&t...


 


as for the commandments, some are easily derivable from just reading the Quran, such as do not kill, do not have sex out of wedlock etc, but for a more comprehensive list one has to refer to the jurisprudence of scholars regarding it; such a comprehensive list is not easy to find on the net, thus you can learn this by asking questions to Muslims on sites like this...


 


hope this helps


peace

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 12, 2010 - 2:08PM #7
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Aug 11, 2010 -- 3:50PM, Markezuma wrote:


I ran across a verse today for which I need the context. It's in surah 16 (The Bee) around 60-65.


The Arberry reads, "They assign to God that they themselves dislike."


And the Dawood say "They foist upon God what they themselves abhor."


Is this refering to a specific idea that the unbelievers attributed to God because they didn't like it or believe it themselves? Further is it an idea that the prophet was actually teaching or was it something they made up to try to make the faith look bad?




here is the interpretation of the verse in question:


Still, they assign to God what they dislike, for themselves — such as daughters, partners in power, and the mistreatment of messengers. And their tongues, despite this, relate, tell, the lie, which is, that theirs will be the best reward, with God, namely, Paradise, as He [God] states [in their words elsewhere]: ‘And in case I am returned to my Lord, I will indeed have the best reward with Him’ [Q. 41:50]. But God, exalted be He, says: Without any doubt — verily — theirs shall be the Fire and they shall be abandoned therein, or [it, mufratūn, means that] they shall be foremost in [entering] it (a variant reading [for mufratūn] has mufritūn, meaning that ‘they transgress the bounds’).


www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&t...


basically it is talking about, the desbelievers assigning to God, what they dislike for themselves such as daughters [for the pagan arabs did not used to like daughters and used to bury many of them alive], etc, etc,; the mension of 'mistreatment of messengers' above could be reffering to, that in the arab customs, a Messenger or an envoy was respected and not harmed, thus maybe they used to say that God mistreated His Messengers [of the past?]

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 12, 2010 - 2:48PM #8
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Aug 5, 2010 -- 6:51PM, Markezuma wrote:


Thank you Ibn. I agree that there is much hamony between the Bible and the Koran and recognize that there is a lifetime of study in each. My theological perspectives are very unorthodox for a Christian in part because I take the Koran very seriously. I wonder for instance whether it is possible to remain a Christian and at the same time avoid association (shirk). I also like the way the Koran gives me new insights about Jesus. I will continue to read it and very much like to discuss what I read so it really sinks in.




MashAllah Mark, your doing a fantastic thing by taking such an obviously divine Book very seriously' believe me my dear brother'; it is the Truth from God ALlmighty' my ALlah guide you to the truth and save you ameen!


in a nutshell my dear brother, there is no saving oneself from shirk if one remains in another religion other than Islam, for Islam has been sent to all men, thus abrogating the previous religions, thus even if you was to believe that Jesus [pbuh] was a hundred percent human and Gods Messenger and did not associate any partners with ALlah [as far as you could], then even then that will be shirk without embracing Islam and becoming a Muslim, for remaining outside of Islam when the islamic messeage clarifies that one has to accept it is basically 'rejection of faith' or 'desbelief' and this a a type of shirk too, for it associates one's own customs [or the customs of another religion with Gods perogative to be worshipped as He pleases


here is an article that will give you the decicive Quran/Islamic view regarding this:


Though the Sacred Law of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) superseded all previously valid religious laws, it was identical with them in beliefs, such as tawhid or "oneness of God", and so on, a fact that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) emphasized by saying, "Let none of you say I am superior to [the prophet] Jonah," (Bukhari, 4.193: 3412), for the illumination of Jonah’s tawhid (upon him be peace)--under the darkness of the storm, the darkness of the sea, and the darkness of the belly of the fish--was not less than the illumination of the Prophet’s tawhid at the zenith of his success as the spiritual leader of all Arabia (Allah bless him and give him peace). The light of their message was one, in which sense the Koran says, "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers" (Koran 2:285), showing that previous religions were the same in beliefs, and though differing in provisions of works, and now abrogated by the final religion, were valid in their own times.


As for today, only Islam is valid or acceptable now that Allah has sent it to all men, for the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) has said,


"By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell" (al-Baghawi: Sharh al-sunna 1.104).


This hadith was also reported by Muslim in his Sahih by `Abd al-Razzaq in his Musannaf, and others. It is a rigorously authenticated (sahih) evidence that clarifies the word of Allah in surat Al ‘Imran


"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the next life" (Koran 3:85)


and many other verses and hadiths. That Islam is the only remaining valid or acceptable religion is necessarily known as part of our religion, and to believe anything other than this is unbelief (kufr) that places a person outside of Islam, as Imam Nawawi notes:


"Someone who does not believe that whoever follows another religion besides Islam is an unbeliever (like Christians), or doubts that such a person is an unbeliever, or considers their sect to be valid, is himself an unbeliever (kafir) even if he manifests Islam and believes in it" (Rawda al-talibin, 10.70).[1]


This is not only the position of the Shafi’i school of jurisprudence represented by Nawawi, but is also the recorded position of all three other Sunni schools: Hanafi (Ibn ‘Abidin: Radd al-muhtar 3.287), Maliki (al-Dardir: al-Sharh al-saghir, 4.435), and Hanbali (al-Bahuti: Kashshaf al-qina’, 6.170). Those who know fiqh literature will note that each of these works is the foremost fatwa resource in its school. The scholars of Sacred Law are unanimous about the abrogation of all other religions by Islam because it is the position of Islam itself. It only remains for the sincere Muslim to submit to, in which connection Ibn al-`Arabi has said:


"Beware lest you ever say anything that does not conform to the pure Sacred Law. Know that the highest stage of the perfected ones (rijal) is the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace). And know that the esoteric that contravenes the exoteric is a fraud" (al-Burhani: al-Hall al-sadid, 32).


qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=...


Also you may find on sites such as these some people insisting that the Quran says previous religions are still valid; here is an explanation of how such a view arose and the Islamic view regarding it:


Traditional Islam certainly does not accept the suggestion that


"it is true that many Muslims believe that the universality of guidance pertains only to pre-Koranic times, but others disagree; there is no ‘orthodox’ interpretation here that Muslims must accept" (Religious Diversity, 124).


Orthodoxy exists, it is unanimously agreed upon by the scholars of Muslims, and we have conveyed in Nawawi’s words above that to believe anything else is unbelief. As for "others disagree," it is true, but is something that has waited for fourteen centuries of Islamic scholarship down to the present century to be first promulgated in Cairo in the 1930s by the French convert to Islam Rene Gunon, and later by his student Frithjof Schuon and writers under him. Who else said it before? And if no one did, and everyone else considers it kufr, on what basis should it be accepted?


..........


hope this helps


peace

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2010 - 1:35PM #9
Markezuma
Posts: 289

Sep 12, 2010 -- 2:00PM, Abdullah. wrote:


Salaam


the rulings and commandments of the Quran needs a contextual scholarly deduction, hence such aspects dont apply to a non-Muslim or a laymen [in regards to Islamic knolwledge] anyway thus you can read any part of the Quran you like, but normally a Muslim will start from the beginning and read on thus untill they get ot the end; once they have finished reading the whole Quran, they can start the same again or choose what chapter they want to read


thus for you my friend i think it will be best to read it from the begining to the end and in this way you'd be able to get a basic understanding of the simple realities adressed in the Quran from start to finish




Salaam and thank you Abdullah. As I said I did read the Koran in its entirety once before. I'm currently just over half way though it again (Surah 27, The Ant). It has definitely influenced my thinking about the nature of God and how we should relate to Him and each other. Since I'm not a Muslim myself (I don't have an Imam to whom I can ask all my questions) I find your perspective valuable. I've got a few more questions but want to answer everything you've said before I open up discussion of other subjects.


Sep 12, 2010 -- 2:00PM, Abdullah. wrote:


as for the commandments, some are easily derivable from just reading the Quran, such as do not kill, do not have sex out of wedlock etc, but for a more comprehensive list one has to refer to the jurisprudence of scholars regarding it; such a comprehensive list is not easy to find on the net, thus you can learn this by asking questions to Muslims on sites like this...


hope this helps


peace





Yes this is very helpful. I want to understand the nuances of Islam so that I can reconcile Muslim ideals with the many others I have in my head and learn to disagree according to the dictates of my conscience without offending the Muslims with whom I'm disagreeing.


Sep 12, 2010 -- 2:08PM, Abdullah. wrote:


here is the interpretation of the verse in question:


Still,  they assign to God what they dislike, for themselves — such as  daughters, partners in power, and the mistreatment of messengers. And  their tongues, despite this, relate, tell, the lie, which is, that  theirs will be the best reward, with God, namely, Paradise, as He [God]  states [in their words elsewhere]: ‘And in case I am returned to my  Lord, I will indeed have the best reward with Him’ [Q. 41:50]. But God,  exalted be He, says: Without any doubt — verily — theirs shall be the  Fire and they shall be abandoned therein, or [it, mufratūn, means that]  they shall be foremost in [entering] it (a variant reading [for  mufratūn] has mufritūn, meaning that ‘they transgress the bounds’).


basically  it is talking about, the desbelievers assigning to God, what they  dislike for themselves such as daughters [for the pagan arabs did not  used to like daughters and used to bury many of them alive], etc, etc,;  the mension of 'mistreatment of messengers' above could be reffering to,  that in the arab customs, a Messenger or an envoy was respected and not  harmed, thus maybe they used to say that God mistreated His Messengers  [of the past?]




That makes sense more sense of that verse. I am familiar with the pre-Islamic custom of killing baby girls and the Koranic injunction not to slay children out of fear of poverty. So claiming that God has daughters when they don't want any themselves is the height of hypocrisy.


I'm not as clear about the issue of mistreatment. The Bible, the Koran, and the Book of Mormon (I'm LDS) all give examples of prophets being harmed, so I'm not sure how strong a force the Arab custom to respect the messenger would have played in the Mohamed's life. But if his opponents are accusing God Himself of the mistreatment instead of owning up to the blame for themselves I can again see the transgression.


Sep 12, 2010 -- 2:48PM, Abdullah. wrote:


MashAllah Mark,  your doing a fantastic thing by taking such an obviously divine Book  very seriously' believe me my dear brother'; it is the Truth from God  ALlmighty' my ALlah guide you to the truth and save you ameen!




Thank you again I continue to aim to approach it humbly and prayerfully.


Sep 12, 2010 -- 2:48PM, Abdullah. wrote:


in a nutshell my dear brother, there is no saving oneself from shirk  if one remains in another religion other than Islam, for Islam has been  sent to all men, thus abrogating the previous religions, thus even if  you was to believe that Jesus [pbuh] was a hundred percent human and  Gods Messenger and did not associate any partners with ALlah [as far as  you could], then even then that will be shirk without embracing Islam  and becoming a Muslim, for remaining outside of Islam when the islamic  messeage clarifies that one has to accept it is basically 'rejection of  faith' or 'desbelief' and this a a type of shirk too, for it associates  one's own customs [or the customs of another religion with Gods  perogative to be worshipped as He pleases




I suspected as much. I guess I will have to put aside my worries about association except in the unlikely event that I convert to Islam.


Sep 12, 2010 -- 2:48PM, Abdullah. wrote:


here is an article that will give you the decicive Quran/Islamic view regarding this:


Though the Sacred Law of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him  peace) superseded all previously valid religious laws, it was identical  with them in beliefs, such as tawhid or "oneness of God", and so on, a  fact that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) emphasized by  saying, "Let none of you say I am superior to [the prophet] Jonah,"  (Bukhari, 4.193: 3412), for the illumination of Jonah’s tawhid (upon him  be peace)--under the darkness of the storm, the darkness of the sea,  and the darkness of the belly of the fish--was not less than the  illumination of the Prophet’s tawhid at the zenith of his success as the  spiritual leader of all Arabia (Allah bless him and give him peace).  The light of their message was one, in which sense the Koran says, "We  do not differentiate between any of His messengers" (Koran 2:285),  showing that previous religions were the same in beliefs, and though  differing in provisions of works, and now abrogated by the final  religion, were valid in their own times.




I do believe in progressive revelation and understand how parts of the old are abrogated by parts of the new. I however do not view Islam as the final religion. It makes sense to me why God had not spoken to us for a long time, but as a Mormon I believe that prophecy has been restored to the earth. The challenge for me is not with Jonah but with Joseph Smith Jr. I believe he was a prophet but work hard not to put him above other prophets such as Mohamed. Since I believe that God is talking to us again I don't even feel that my own is the final religion. We humans are imperfect and limited, and our understanding of God will always be that way too. So it stands to reason at least to me that He can reveal greater wisdom to us when we are ready for it.


Sep 12, 2010 -- 2:48PM, Abdullah. wrote:


"By Him in whose  hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or  any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have  been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell" (al-Baghawi: Sharh  al-sunna 1.104).


"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it  accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the  next life" (Koran 3:85)




I do believe in life after death but am far from convinced of the literal burning hell of which the Koran speaks. I view hell as distance from God and believe that people have to choose that distance intentionally. A loving God in my opinion will not condemn someone for eternity for failing to see the light or logic of any particular religion (be it of yours, mine, or anyone else).


Sep 12, 2010 -- 2:48PM, Abdullah. wrote:


Traditional Islam certainly does not accept the suggestion that


"it is true that many Muslims believe that the universality of  guidance pertains only to pre-Koranic times, but others disagree; there  is no ‘orthodox’ interpretation here that Muslims must accept"  (Religious Diversity, 124).


Orthodoxy exists, it is unanimously agreed upon by the scholars of  Muslims, and we have conveyed in Nawawi’s words above that to believe  anything else is unbelief. As for "others disagree," it is true, but is  something that has waited for fourteen centuries of Islamic scholarship  down to the present century to be first promulgated in Cairo in the  1930s by the French convert to Islam Rene Gunon, and later by his  student Frithjof Schuon and writers under him. Who else said it before?  And if no one did, and everyone else considers it kufr, on what basis  should it be accepted?


..........


hope this helps


peace




It was my understanding the the majority of Muslims were moving away from using the word kufr to describe all non-Muslims because it tends to be derogatory. Have you found this to be the case or am I mistaken?


Again your help is appreciated. Peace to you as well.

"Better a live sparrow than a stuffed eagle" -E. Fitzgerald
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4 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2010 - 2:38PM #10
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

My apologies Mark for the late reply; been very busy lately and only had time to come on the net now...


i should have elaborated on the 'respect of Messengers' bit too; by 'messengers' I meant 'envoys' such as envoys that are sent by rulers/governors of one country to another; such envoys were honoured and respected and not harmed in the Arab culture and obviously the Prophet Messengers of God were generally opposed in all cultures and communities they were sent to


since you do seem to see a bit of truth in the Quran Mark, i'll tell you of further divine signs to look out for in the Quran and they are, it's sheer consistency from start to finish, the oceons of knowledge it contains, it's beutifull Arabic recitation, it's inimitibility and the scientific miracles it contains and overall the verses of the Quran just striking someones innate nature as being divine; now consider what the Quran says about the issue of continuation of prophethood and revelation in this context:


heres a post i made on it earlier:


033.040: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things. 


 


 005.003: ... This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.... 


 


the above verse of the Holy Quran is unequivical in stating that there will be no other Prophet after prophet Muhammad [saw]. Reffering to the Prophet Muhammad [saw] as the seal of the prophets we are explicitly told about the termination of prophethood. 


 


the second verse of the Quran draws our attention to the conclusion of revealed religion and the conclusion for ALlah's guidance to mankind. Addition to any complete article can only be an abomination. similarly attempting to add to an allready completed religion will be nothing short of sacrilidge. 


 


what do the Ahadith [Sayings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)] say?: 


 


Verily the day of judgement will not be esatablished untill thirty imposters and liars have arisen, all of them will claim to be a messeneger of ALlah [Muslim] 


 


Verily thrity liars will be born in my ummah, everyone of them will claim to be a prophet though I am the last Prophet and no Prophet will come after me [at-tirmidhi] 


 


the above hadiths warn about thirty liars who will arise before the day of judgement claiming to be messengers of ALlah. A messenger [Rasool] is a prophet who is given a message to deliver to his people, so anyone claiming to be a Messenger of ALlah after the Prophet muhammad [saw] is an imposter 


 


the second hadith informs us about thirty liars who will emerge in the ummah - from amongst the muslims, each claiming to be a Prophet. by mentioning Prophets, this hadith includes messengers. from this we can concldue that there will be no Prophets or messengers after the prophet muhammad [saw] and anyone claiming this is a liar. 


 


what is meant by 'khateman nabiyeen'? 


 


both the Quran and hadith describe the prophet [saw] as khateman nabiyeen. khatam means to finish and nabiyyeen can be translated as Prophets 


 


when we think of the word 'finish'; it can be used it two contexts both of which are applicable to the finality of Prophet Muhammad [saw]. An example would be helpfull at this stage. If a person were to say, 'I have finished the food on my plate', from this sentence one would deduce finish to mean the end of something and it's absense in the future 


 


the second context where finish could be used is when a student says, 'I have finished the examination'; distinct from the first meaning, finished now takes on the meaning that something has been completed or achieved 


 


both of these meanings apply to the prophet muhammad [saw]. a muslim believes that no other prophets will come after prophet muhammad [saw] because he ended Propethood and no messenger will emerge after because the Prophet muhammad [saw] completed Messengership 


 


some more hadiths on the finality of prophethood: 


 


the chain of prophets has come to an end. there shall be no messenger or prophet after me [at-tirmidhi]


the tribes of israel was guided by prophets. when a prophet passed away another prophet succeeded him; but no Prophets will come after me, only caliphs will succeed me [bukhari] 


 


you are related to me as Aaraon was related to Moses [pbuh] but no apostle will come after me [bukhari]


we are the last [ummah] but will precede all on the day of ressurrection except that the book was given to them before us [bukhari] 


 


My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example. a man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beuty, but he left an empty niche in the corner where just one brick was missing. people looked around the building and marvelled at it's beuty, but wondered why one brick was missing from that niche, I am like that one missing brick and i am the last in the line of prophets [bukhari]


 


hope that helps


 


peace 

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