Post Reply
Page 1 of 11  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 11 Next
Switch to Forum Live View How about "The Ascension" ... ???
4 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2010 - 1:42PM #1
teilhard
Posts: 51,340

I've long puzzled over the Observed Fact that so many ( would-be; Self-Annointed; "Modern;" Materialist; SUPPOSEDLY "Scientific" ) Critics of The Catholic Faith and The Holy Bible tend to zero-zero-zero-in on The Resurrection of The Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth ( as IMPOSSIBLE, and, therefore, NON-Real ) ...


But they seem to tend to ignore/miss/neglect a REAL Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth Scandalon, i.e., His "Ascension" ( see, e.g., Luke 24:50-53; John 20:17; 1 Thessalonians 4:13ff; etc. ) ...


W-H-E-R-E Is The Resurrected Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth NOW ... ???

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2010 - 5:17PM #2
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Speaking of the ascension found in Acts 1:1-1:11, after talking about it at some length conclude with, "All of this is the product of Luke's imagination. Since it is not based on historical events, black was the decisive vote of the Fellows of the Scholars.


About the Pseudo-Mark "ascension," they see the author as dependent upon the author of Luke/Acts.


In John, there's some talk about what might happen, but it seems there isn't an ascension story.


Some theologian I read some years ago said if Jesus was headed up at the speed of light, he still wouldn't have reached heaven... He'd still be traveling in outer space!

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2010 - 8:52PM #3
Blü
Posts: 25,056

teilhard


W-H-E-R-E Is The Resurrected Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth NOW ...  ???


Same place as Mickey Mouse and Martin Chuzzlewit and all other fictitious characters - namely, wherever you care to imagine.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2010 - 6:50AM #4
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

"W-H-E-R-E Is The Resurrected Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth NOW ... ???"


Most serious scholars would say that Jesus died on the cross and was either left to rot on it reand then the body disposed of or the body was thrown in a pit. (There are several sources for that I can cite, but shouldn't most people realize that?) The consensus of the Jesus Seminar was "The body of Jesus decayed as do other corpses" (p. 462, The Acts of Jesus). This was seen as "virtually certain."


In another book (The Resurrection of Jesus), a group of essays, Robert Price gives a couple of parallels to the fictive "Rocket Man Jesus," one from Josephus and one from Philo, both explaining the "ascension of Moses." The story is a good model for the ascension story of Jesus and since the evidence of the author of Luke/Acts using Josephus is strong, the similarities in the two stories hints at its use by the author. Price concludes with:


"Though each seems to feel the need to be cagey about it, it is plain enough that both writers believed Moses did not really die but ascended to heaven. This was because no one could locate his body; no one knew where (or if) there was a grave.


"Were the Easter stories of the gospels typical of ancient Hellenistic myth and legend? You decide" (p. 59).


Bodies die and decompose. The "Resurrected Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth's" body, like other decomposed life, rotted and became part of the Earth.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2010 - 10:07AM #5
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,961

Jun 18, 2010 -- 5:17PM, Dennis wrote:


...............Some theologian I read some years ago said if Jesus was headed up at the speed of light, he still wouldn't have reached heaven... He'd still be traveling in outer space!





I believe that was Bishop Spong quoting a conversation he'd had with Dr. Carl Sagan:


If heaven is "up there", and Jesus Ascended at the speed of light, He still hasn't left the Galaxie."  Laughing

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2010 - 12:02PM #6
teilhard
Posts: 51,340

Those of a Materialist-Atheist World-Vew don't know what to do with a Unique Event -- except DISMISS It ..

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2010 - 12:52PM #7
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Probably the most hilarious thing about this is to consider the words of John 20:17 historical. Hysterical, yes. Historical, no. ("Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my father and your Father, to my God and your God.'") It is certainly in conflict with the synoptic gospels and is typical of the Johanine notion that Jesus was a "visitor" from heaven, one who existed before Abe (8:58), the resurrection and life (11:25), the way, truth and life (14:6), a god of sorts, which we find in the ridiculous notion of Jesus being the "only son of God," who came to the world to "resuce the world through him" (3:16-17). This, of course, was a second century viewpoint we find echoed by other writers of the second century and later... It is considered "high christology" and doesn't figure in the reconstruction of a historical Jesus... or in any figure of history. One can also note that John 20:17 considers all his "brethren" as the son of God, in obvious conflict with John 3:16. One can also infer that, the very next time we hear from "Jesus," he gets all touchie-feelie with his disciples, so, if we look at this, he must have ascended and come back down, which of course is at odds with Acts, which has him dying, taken up to heaven, coming back, and ascending again... We have a very distinct possibility of the world's first pogo stick, with Jesus bouncing back and forth to and from heaven! What an image, with the pictures we have of the Northern European long haired dude in a white robe on a pogo stick, just a-bouncing and having so much fun!


Can you get the image?????


 


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2010 - 12:52PM #8
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,961

Jun 19, 2010 -- 12:02PM, teilhard wrote:


Those of a Materialist-Atheist World-Vew don't know what to do with a Unique Event -- except DISMISS It ..





So, you're going to explain, with something other than a one liner, what the unique event was and how it happened? Or are you going to dismiss any inquiry with a nonsensical meaningless reply?

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2010 - 8:40PM #9
Blü
Posts: 25,056

teilhard


So give us some good forensic reasons for thinking that heaven isn't imaginary.


And that it's a place that one can (in reality) ascend to.


And that someone in history did just that.


 


Of course, the hippopotamus in the room is your failure to address the OP of the Resurrection - No thread at all, let alone the part that points out only two of the five resurrection accounts mention an ascension at all, and those two disagree on whether it occurred from Bethany or from Galilee.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2010 - 6:39AM #10
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

That's a great point about heaven. The notion of the ascension taking place in Galilee shows a real boo boo that the author of Luke/Acts made. (He made quite a few errirs during the course of Acts, but this one deals with where the ascension took place.)


from Acts 1


"While staying with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem but to wait there for the promise of the Father."


"So when they had come together..." (Ostensibly where he ordered them to stay, in Jerusalem.)


"as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight."


"Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day's journey away..." (from sunset Friday until sunset Saturday)


Now, the question is simple... They were staying in Jerusalem... He was lifted up... Then, they returned to Jerusalem. Why and how did they leave then return to Jerusalem, since they were staying there? They "came together" apparently ten to twenty miles away from Jerusalem, not in Jerusalem... Or, did they?


(Serious question. Needs a serious answer.)

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 11  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 11 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook