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Switch to Forum Live View Churches are Political Institutions
5 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2010 - 8:44PM #11
Kodiacman
Posts: 2,541

Mar 24, 2010 -- 8:30PM, RJMcElwain wrote:


The premise is a good explanation as to how the Church and it's Scriptures got us to where we are today. Politics shaped first century oral tradition. Politics shaped the writing of these oral traditions. And politics shaped the redaction/editing of these Scriptures during the 2nd, 3rd and later centuries of Church evolution.


Politics shapes how the RCC deals with sexual scandal. Politics shapes how the Orthodox Churches of Russia dealt with the Soviet Union. Politics shapes how people like Pat Robertson call Katrina a just reward.





RJ,


Thanks for the clarification. That is what I thought you had meant but somehow a cat crept in somewhere and I went back after reading blu's comments thinking I missed something...but alas I did not..thanks


blessings


mark

If someone wants to doubt the existence of Jesus, my experience is that no evidence or argument will change his mind. Such is the nature of skepticism.~Editor fourth R
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2010 - 9:06PM #12
teilhard
Posts: 51,872

Mar 24, 2010 -- 4:41PM, RJMcElwain wrote:


Here's something most of us have always known, but it's still worth keeping in mind. And the politics go all the way back to the first century, as various constituencies vied to shape the Church.


 


Churches are political institutions, and that's a good thing




In a speech to the Episcopal Communicators' annual convention last week in Salem, Mass. The Hon. Byron Rushing, who has been reelected to the Massachusetts State Legislature two or three dozen times, and to the Diocese of Massachusetts Deputation to the General Convention of the Episcopal Church at least as often said that churches, like towns and cities, states and nations, are inescapably political organizations, and that churches get into trouble when they pretend otherwise.






By the above Definitions and Observations, ALL Social Organizations and Institutions are "Political" in Character, yes ... ???

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2010 - 10:02PM #13
Blü
Posts: 25,186

Mark


The premise of this thread is that all religions are political.


It occurs to me that the description isn't complete.  They're also selling things for money in the market place.


So on the basis of the premise, we should register the political ones as political parties.


And we should treat the ones that trade for profit like any other trader.  Not just the Scientologists, either.


 


To clear up a possible implication in teilhard's post, I add that I'm happy that charitable outgoings for the public at large, or sections of the public defined by particular needs - but not defined by or favoring membership or association with particular groups - be tax deductible.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2010 - 11:59PM #14
Kodiacman
Posts: 2,541

Mar 24, 2010 -- 10:02PM, Blü wrote:


Mark


The premise of this thread is that all religions are political.




KODIAC WROTE: yeah I got that the first time I read it...


Mar 24, 2010 -- 10:02PM, Blü wrote:


It occurs to me that the description isn't complete.  They're also selling things for money in the market place.


So on the basis of the premise, we should register the political ones as political parties.


And we should treat the ones that trade for profit like any other trader.  Not just the Scientologists, either.


 To clear up a possible implication in teilhard's post, I add that I'm happy that charitable outgoings for the public at large, or sections of the public defined by particular needs - but not defined by or favoring membership or association with particular groups - be tax deductible.




So what determines what gets taxed? the charitable outgoings for the pubic at large. Does this dismiss special programs to specific groups?


How would your system be diferent than the system that currently is in place? US for example..


Again, need a little help here. a lot of ambiguity.... can you clarify as it seems to make no sense to me. I miss lots of stuff....


blessings mark

If someone wants to doubt the existence of Jesus, my experience is that no evidence or argument will change his mind. Such is the nature of skepticism.~Editor fourth R
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2010 - 1:12AM #15
Blü
Posts: 25,186

Mark


This is wandering far from the necessary lightness of the topic, and even further than the thread began from the Historical Jesus.

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2010 - 7:09AM #16
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Mar 25, 2010 -- 1:12AM, Blü wrote:


Mark


This is wandering far from the necessary lightness of the topic, and even further than the thread began from the Historical Jesus.





That happens when there is a topic about which all generally agree, but the motives of some in the group are not genuine with regard to the forum and its purpose.


The historical Jesus said to pay your taxes (Mark 12:17; cf Luke 20:25b, Matt 22:21c, Thom. 100:2b). The original context given by the author was to the religious. If one is that big on the gospels, one certainly should support churches paying taxes, one would think!


Dennis

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2010 - 8:00AM #17
bigbear6161
Posts: 4,203

I am in agreement with RJ that political concerns greatly influenced and shaped the emergence of our scriptures and other church institutions.  It would be virtually impossible to be otherwise.  As Aristotle once said "Man is a political animal."  Of course various interests, theological positions and communities would engage in political behavior as they vie for dominance or just trying to keep their voice in their amid the highly charged milieu of the Hellenistic and Roman world.  The way texts have been discovered and redacted and the use of pseudoepigraphic apostolic authorship all play out politically and humanly.  It's neither good nor bad, it's just human and the way things happened.


Dave

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2010 - 12:44PM #18
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Mar 25, 2010 -- 8:00AM, bigbear6161 wrote:


I am in agreement with RJ that political concerns greatly influenced and shaped the emergence of our scriptures and other church institutions.  It would be virtually impossible to be otherwise.  As Aristotle once said "Man is a political animal."  Of course various interests, theological positions and communities would engage in political behavior as they vie for dominance or just trying to keep their voice in their amid the highly charged milieu of the Hellenistic and Roman world.  The way texts have been discovered and redacted and the use of pseudoepigraphic apostolic authorship all play out politically and humanly.  It's neither good nor bad, it's just human and the way things happened.


Dave





One example, Dave, of that, could be the text I quoted, generally considered to be historical... One could also see it, for instance, as a later utterance (that's why I italicized historical Jesus) as a warning of the early proto-orthodox community in which it was originally written to pay taxes. (It hearkens back to a section of Josephus, as he is speaking of the causes of the first Jewish Roman war, where Agrippa is imploring the people to pay their taxes, saying, "for you have not paid the tribute which is due to Caesar" book 2.403, The Wars of the Jews). Note the similarity to, "Pay the emperor what belongs to the emperor..."


Dennis

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2010 - 1:19PM #19
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,981

Mar 25, 2010 -- 8:00AM, bigbear6161 wrote:


I am in agreement with RJ that political concerns greatly influenced and shaped the emergence of our scriptures and other church institutions.  It would be virtually impossible to be otherwise.  As Aristotle once said "Man is a political animal."  Of course various interests, theological positions and communities would engage in political behavior as they vie for dominance or just trying to keep their voice in their amid the highly charged milieu of the Hellenistic and Roman world.  The way texts have been discovered and redacted and the use of pseudoepigraphic apostolic authorship all play out politically and humanly.  It's neither good nor bad, it's just human and the way things happened.


Dave




Dave,


Agreed. The history of the Church in the second century on is loaded with stories of the various Church fathers pressing their own personal agenda. It's a wonder that we might have a single word that can be attributed to Jesus, given the incredible desire of some of these, such as Marcion, Irenaeus and so many others to shape Christian doctrine to their particular point of view.


My view is that we don't have any authentic words but, maybe, we can grasp the essence of His message.

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2010 - 1:35PM #20
natureboy_the0
Posts: 1,740

Mar 24, 2010 -- 4:41PM, RJMcElwain wrote:

Churches are political institutions, and that's a good thing




In a speech to the Episcopal Communicators' annual convention last week in Salem, Mass. The Hon. Byron Rushing, who has been reelected to the Massachusetts State Legislature two or three dozen times, and to the Diocese of Massachusetts Deputation to the General Convention of the Episcopal Church at least as often said that churches, like towns and cities, states and nations, are inescapably political organizations, and that churches get into trouble when they pretend otherwise.


  The institutionalized church is a political organization but the church Jesus established when he said "upon this rock I will build [call out from the governed by man] my church" was not intended to be so.   


What we have today is a group following world tradition because the church Jesus began require our living basically like the other animals.  Look at Matthew 6:24-30, those he called out of the world are told not to sow nor gather in barns; do not spin nor weave but be clothed as the lily of the field is.  Those words tells us to live basically like the other animals, allow nature or the cosmos to provide our needs.  They require us to be completely dependent on god for our every need, not to work for them by serving others of our kind. 



Are you questioning your beliefs, ask I AM THAT I AM to clarify them!
Elijah Alfred "NatureBoy" Alexander, Jr. presenting SEEDS OF LIFE
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