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Switch to Forum Live View What should be learned from the laws of the old testament (Exodus)?
4 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2010 - 11:15PM #21
Roger
Posts: 107

Hello Amaia, Just stopped by to read a few posts and saw your question, which I commend you for.  The Bible says that those who seek will find, and God always honors a sincere heart that seeks. Keep at it.  Now, to give my opinion on your question of the OT sacrificial system, commands and statutes and their relevance today. 


After years of studying the Bible, one theme becomes clear and that is not only is the OT a historical record of man's creation and fall, but how God set aside a nation for Himself that would lead in the fullness of time to his plan of redemption through Jesus Christ.  One of the main arguments for the truth and accuracy of the Bible is how the sacrificial system established in the Mosaic covenant was a clear foreshadowing of the sacrifice of the Christ to come, which was authenticated when John the Baptist referred to Jesus as the "Lamb of God".  That phrase would have made no sense to the Jewish population without the sacrificial system that had been set up 1500 years before to give it meaning.   Because they fully understood the forgiveness of sin through an innocent, unblemished sacrifice, they were able to understand (after the crucifixtion and resurrection) the significance of Christ's sacrifice.   Also, when you read the OT in that light (in a version that is easy for you to understand), you can see God's plan of redemption for mankind as early as Genesis 3 and how that redemptive thread runs through the entire Bible, culminating in the final sacrifice of God's "chosen One". 


As Paul states in Roman 5:18-19 "through one man's sin (Adam) judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act (Christ) came the free gift, resulting in justification of life.  For as by one man's disobedience many (all mankind) were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many (believers) were made righteous (in the sight of God). 


Hope that helps in some way to understand the meaning behind the OT sacrificial system.   (A foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross) 


Now, as to how we should regard the rest of the statutes you find in the Mosaic covenant.


God's commands and statutes to the Israelites were not for His benefit, but theirs.  He knew how weak, stubborn and rebellious they were (much like we are today) and that only by setting a rigid standard of conduct that included both blessings and curses would they adhere to His word.  Kinda like we do with our own children today. 


We understand today that Jesus FULFILLED the Law and established a NEW covenant (which was His right as the Son of God) (Matthew 5:17), therefore many of the ritual commands and statutes that were in place under the "old covenant" were superceded by the final sacrifice of Christ to satisfy our sin debt.


An in-depth study shows the forward progression from the Adamic covenant to the Mosaic covenant to the FULFILLMENT of the older covenants in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. 


To explain it a little simpler (hopefully)  When I add 19 + 2, do I still have to "carry my 1" so that I can arrive at the sum of 21?  No, that's 1st grade stuff.  Thankfully, I've progressed in my KNOWLEDGE of mathematics and can now set aside that elementary tool of "carrying the 1" that my teachers used to help me understand math. 


The Law was established as an "elementary" tool to teach, grow, and yes, discipline the "students" until they "graduated" in Jesus.  Does that mean that Law was abolished? No.  It was fulfilled, just as college "fulfills" elementary school.  Since it was fulfilled, does that mean I must still practice my 1st grade "methodology"  No.  Just as "carrying the 1" has been incorporated into my knowledge of mathematics, so too are the "old covenants" incorporated into my knowledge of Jesus.  Now that I have attained that superior knowledge, to continue "carrying the 1" would be unnecessary, redundant and burdensome, not to mention an insult to my "superior knowledge" in mathematics.   


However, that in no way removes the important part that "carrying the 1" played in my progression of mathematical knowledge.  It was necessary in 1st grade to use that "tool" .  Without that basic foundation, how would I have known the significance of math as I know it today?  The "good news" is that I have graduated and no longer need to adhere to the old methods, because the greatest and most brilliant Teacher of all has shown me a new and better way.  


There are still many around who believe we should continue the OT methodolgy, but the more you dig into the NT (Gospels and Letters), it's obvious that Lord Jesus Himself, in numerous statements, "superceded" those commands. 


I'm not sure if all this helps, but I hope so.  I truly do recommend getting a translation that is easy to read to better help you dig in.  Personally, I like the New Century version, it's a pretty accurate rendering and reads smoothly, or better yet, get a Bible computer program that offers several different translations as well as devotionals and commentaries.  I use E-Bible from Nelson publishers.  ($40.00)  It has really made a difference for me, but certainly you should look around and choose what's best for you. 


May God bless you and keep you as you seek.  I'll look in now and then and try to help, if possible.  You're in my prayers.   

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2010 - 11:20PM #22
Roger
Posts: 107

Amaia, one final reference.  Check out Hebrews 9 to help better understand how Christ fulfilled the sacrificial ordinance set up in the OT.  God bless!

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2010 - 4:03PM #23
Amaia
Posts: 55

Roger said - "Thankfully, I've progressed in my KNOWLEDGE of mathematics and can now set aside that elementary tool of "carrying the 1" that my teachers used to help me understand math. 
The Law was established as an "elementary" tool to teach, grow, and yes, discipline the "students" until they "graduated"...


What a creative way to explain this!  I can see that progression going through the books of the Old Testament, and I am sure I will continue to see it as I finally do get to the books of the new testament.


I know most Christians focus on the New Testament much more than the Old Testament, but I still think there is a lot to be learned from the Old Testament as well.  For example, the story of Joseph shows that no matter what happens to you it can be overcome with faith in God.  Another example of that is in the concern of some of the women's ability to have children.  Here they were told they would be founders of nations, yet their ages were considered to be past child-bearing.


There are a lot of stories about devotion that I like.  Ruth's devotion to Naomi after her husband died is very admirable.  


I know I'm still just touching the tip of the iceberg.  I am still in the first book of Samuel, but like I said before, I feel I have a much better understanding now than I have ever achieved.


Thank you all for your input, it is greatly appreciated!


Blessings,


Amaia

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2010 - 6:47PM #24
world citizen
Posts: 5,385

Heterodoxus ~


1: when, exactly, did the kingly-priestly-commanderish messiah figure promised to Israel by the God of Jews and Christians appear in Israel? You know, that "Messiah the Prince" prophesied in Daniel 9:25 and Isaiah 9:6-7?

Baha'i history has it that the descendant of Abraham, David and the Sassanian kings of Persia known as Baha'u'llah (tr. "glory of God") physically lived in Israel from 1868 to 1892, when He was exiled to the fortressed prison city of Akka (Biblical "Achor") by the Ottoman Turks.  He established His "throne" (administrative order) upon Mount Carmel directly across the plain of Sharon from Akka. [Micah 7:14, Hosea 2:17, Isaiah 35:2, Isaiah 65:10]


2: where is that messiah who would rule from Jerusalem as a kick-butt-take-no-prisoners world and spiritual leader? ...

From His prison cell at Akka letters were delivered by envoy to all of the world's monarchs and political and religious leaders, including Pope Pius IX, most of whom either ignored or ridiculed His dictates.  Since that time history has seen the fall of all Empires.  Coincidentally (?), abrogation of papal temporal power and relegation of the Papacy to Vatican City by Italy occurred one year after Pius IX's insistance that papal infallibility become dogma.  Curiously, Pius' obsession with the subject occurred shortly after receipt of his letter from the prisoner at Akka.  The old assumed "infallibility" of kings, emperors and tsars reigning by the grace of God seemed to fall almost like dominoes:

1870 - fall of the French monarchy
1871 - Papacy confined to Vatican City
1876 - assassination of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz
1896 - assassination of Nasiri'd-Din Shah
1909 - overthrow of Sultan 'Abdu'l-Hamid II
1910 - fall of the Portuguese monarchy
1911 - fall of the Chinese monarchy
1914 - start of World War I
1917 - fall of the Russian monarchy
1917 - Jerusalem released from Islamic rule
1918 - fall of the German monarchy
1918 - fall of the Hungarian monarchy
1922 - fall of the Turkish monarchy
1925 - fall of the Persian Qajar dynasty
1931 - fall of the Spanish monarchy
1938 - fall of the Albanian monarchy
1939 - start of World War II
1941 - fall of the Serbian monarchy
1945 - fall of the Third Reich
1946 - fall of the Italian monarchy
1946 - fall of the Bulgarian monarchy
1947 - fall of the Romanian monarchy
1952 - fall of the Egyptian monarchy
1958 - fall of the Iraqi monarchy
1962 - fall of the Yemenite monarchy


... You know, that pro-Israel messiah who would win that city back from the enemies of Israel (Romans, Muslims, or whoever) ...

It is written in Daniel,  "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." (12:12)  The year 1335 of the Muslim calendar is the exact year, 1917, when the Islamic Ottoman Turks lost control of Jerusalem at the Battle of har Megiddo during the Great War.

... and help the people of Israel to conquer all who oppose that nation?

Which Muslim country has won a war against Israel since its statehood?


3: where is that messiah, that "Christ," promised some 33 times in the OT to Israel by Jehovah, who will impose Judaism and/or Judaism-influenced Christianity upon the world--whether they like it or not?
4: where is that pro-Judaism Messiah-Christ who will teach and enforce blind obedience to Jehovah's dictates and Moses' Law?
Do you think Jesus of Nazareth is/was that messiah figure? If so, then how is what you believe any different than the Muslim who looks for a Mahdi to impose Islam and Sharia Law upon the world?


This is the fallacy...  The Scriptures of all three foretold that the "Host of Hosts" (Judaism), the "Messiah" (Christianity), and the "Qaim" (Sunni Islam) or "Mahdi" (Shia Islam) would restore righteousness and bring about eventual peace to the world but they did NOT prophecy it would be one of those respective religions that would reign.  Man, through  very fallible interpretation, proclaims that it will be his religion that will encircle the world.  While the Qur'an is less specific, saying only that Islam would return to God after 1000 years, both the OT [Isaiah 62:2, 65:15; Enoch 69:14, 69:26] and the NT [Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12] clearly prophecy that both the "son of Man" and His followers would be known by a new name.  In fact, one of Isaiah's "end time" prophecies, 60:10, promised that it would be "the sons of strangers" (not Jews) who would build up the metaphorical walls of Zion.

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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4 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2010 - 2:51AM #25
Ageo
Posts: 453

Mar 26, 2010 -- 6:47PM, world citizen wrote:


Heterodoxus ~


1: when, exactly, did the kingly-priestly-commanderish messiah figure promised to Israel by the God of Jews and Christians appear in Israel? You know, that "Messiah the Prince" prophesied in Daniel 9:25 and Isaiah 9:6-7?

Baha'i history has it that the descendant of Abraham, David and the Sassanian kings of Persia known as Baha'u'llah (tr. "glory of God") physically lived in Israel from 1868 to 1892, when He was exiled to the fortressed prison city of Akka (Biblical "Achor") by the Ottoman Turks.  He established His "throne" (administrative order) upon Mount Carmel directly across the plain of Sharon from Akka. [Micah 7:14, Hosea 2:17, Isaiah 35:2, Isaiah 65:10]




You speak the truth.  One death is glorified above all others.  One death is praised by the Nicolaitanes.


Matthew 25


 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'


 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2010 - 3:13AM #26
Ageo
Posts: 453

Mar 26, 2010 -- 6:47PM, world citizen wrote:


2: where is that messiah who would rule from Jerusalem as a kick-butt-take-no-prisoners world and spiritual leader? ...

From His prison cell at Akka letters were delivered by envoy to all of the world's monarchs and political and religious leaders, including Pope Pius IX, most of whom either ignored or ridiculed His dictates.  Since that time history has seen the fall of all Empires.  Coincidentally (?), abrogation of papal temporal power and relegation of the Papacy to Vatican City by Italy occurred one year after Pius IX's insistance that papal infallibility become dogma.  Curiously, Pius' obsession with the subject occurred shortly after receipt of his letter from the prisoner at Akka.  The old assumed "infallibility" of kings, emperors and tsars reigning by the grace of God seemed to fall almost like dominoes:

1870 - fall of the French monarchy
1871 - Papacy confined to Vatican City
1876 - assassination of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz
1896 - assassination of Nasiri'd-Din Shah
1909 - overthrow of Sultan 'Abdu'l-Hamid II
1910 - fall of the Portuguese monarchy
1911 - fall of the Chinese monarchy
1914 - start of World War I
1917 - fall of the Russian monarchy
1917 - Jerusalem released from Islamic rule
1918 - fall of the German monarchy
1918 - fall of the Hungarian monarchy
1922 - fall of the Turkish monarchy
1925 - fall of the Persian Qajar dynasty
1931 - fall of the Spanish monarchy
1938 - fall of the Albanian monarchy
1939 - start of World War II
1941 - fall of the Serbian monarchy
1945 - fall of the Third Reich
1946 - fall of the Italian monarchy
1946 - fall of the Bulgarian monarchy
1947 - fall of the Romanian monarchy
1952 - fall of the Egyptian monarchy
1958 - fall of the Iraqi monarchy
1962 - fall of the Yemenite monarchy


... You know, that pro-Israel messiah who would win that city back from the enemies of Israel (Romans, Muslims, or whoever) ...




In the blinders good loses a battle to death, in the wide vision a war is won.  An end to the ends.


They seek to destroy one that came to help them.  A soldier and prisoner of Christ.

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2010 - 3:25AM #27
Ageo
Posts: 453

Mar 26, 2010 -- 6:47PM, world citizen wrote:


Heterodoxus ~


1: when, exactly, did the kingly-priestly-commanderish messiah figure promised to Israel by the God of Jews and Christians appear in Israel? You know, that "Messiah the Prince" prophesied in Daniel 9:25 and Isaiah 9:6-7?

Baha'i history has it that the descendant of Abraham, David and the Sassanian kings of Persia known as Baha'u'llah (tr. "glory of God") physically lived in Israel from 1868 to 1892, when He was exiled to the fortressed prison city of Akka (Biblical "Achor") by the Ottoman Turks.  He established His "throne" (administrative order) upon Mount Carmel directly across the plain of Sharon from Akka. [Micah 7:14, Hosea 2:17, Isaiah 35:2, Isaiah 65:10]


2: where is that messiah who would rule from Jerusalem as a kick-butt-take-no-prisoners world and spiritual leader? ...

From His prison cell at Akka letters were delivered by envoy to all of the world's monarchs and political and religious leaders, including Pope Pius IX, most of whom either ignored or ridiculed His dictates.  Since that time history has seen the fall of all Empires.  Coincidentally (?), abrogation of papal temporal power and relegation of the Papacy to Vatican City by Italy occurred one year after Pius IX's insistance that papal infallibility become dogma.  Curiously, Pius' obsession with the subject occurred shortly after receipt of his letter from the prisoner at Akka.  The old assumed "infallibility" of kings, emperors and tsars reigning by the grace of God seemed to fall almost like dominoes:

1870 - fall of the French monarchy
1871 - Papacy confined to Vatican City
1876 - assassination of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz
1896 - assassination of Nasiri'd-Din Shah
1909 - overthrow of Sultan 'Abdu'l-Hamid II
1910 - fall of the Portuguese monarchy
1911 - fall of the Chinese monarchy
1914 - start of World War I
1917 - fall of the Russian monarchy
1917 - Jerusalem released from Islamic rule
1918 - fall of the German monarchy
1918 - fall of the Hungarian monarchy
1922 - fall of the Turkish monarchy
1925 - fall of the Persian Qajar dynasty
1931 - fall of the Spanish monarchy
1938 - fall of the Albanian monarchy
1939 - start of World War II
1941 - fall of the Serbian monarchy
1945 - fall of the Third Reich
1946 - fall of the Italian monarchy
1946 - fall of the Bulgarian monarchy
1947 - fall of the Romanian monarchy
1952 - fall of the Egyptian monarchy
1958 - fall of the Iraqi monarchy
1962 - fall of the Yemenite monarchy


... You know, that pro-Israel messiah who would win that city back from the enemies of Israel (Romans, Muslims, or whoever) ...

It is written in Daniel,  "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." (12:12)  The year 1335 of the Muslim calendar is the exact year, 1917, when the Islamic Ottoman Turks lost control of Jerusalem at the Battle of har Megiddo during the Great War.

... and help the people of Israel to conquer all who oppose that nation?

Which Muslim country has won a war against Israel since its statehood?


3: where is that messiah, that "Christ," promised some 33 times in the OT to Israel by Jehovah, who will impose Judaism and/or Judaism-influenced Christianity upon the world--whether they like it or not?
4: where is that pro-Judaism Messiah-Christ who will teach and enforce blind obedience to Jehovah's dictates and Moses' Law?
Do you think Jesus of Nazareth is/was that messiah figure? If so, then how is what you believe any different than the Muslim who looks for a Mahdi to impose Islam and Sharia Law upon the world?


This is the fallacy...  The Scriptures of all three foretold that the "Host of Hosts" (Judaism), the "Messiah" (Christianity), and the "Qaim" (Sunni Islam) or "Mahdi" (Shia Islam) would restore righteousness and bring about eventual peace to the world but they did NOT prophecy it would be one of those respective religions that would reign.  Man, through  very fallible interpretation, proclaims that it will be his religion that will encircle the world.  While the Qur'an is less specific, saying only that Islam would return to God after 1000 years, both the OT [Isaiah 62:2, 65:15; Enoch 69:14, 69:26] and the NT [Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12] clearly prophecy that both the "son of Man" and His followers would be known by a new name.  In fact, one of Isaiah's "end time" prophecies, 60:10, promised that it would be "the sons of strangers" (not Jews) who would build up the metaphorical walls of Zion.




In a moment all tears lost by a ring.  No mercy.

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2010 - 4:30PM #28
Unworthyone
Posts: 2,452

Mar 23, 2010 -- 6:07PM, Heterodoxus wrote:


Where did you see that I made any demand?



It was right there in post #11:


But, if you're using "Christ" as the last name of Jesus rather than a Hebrew messianic title, then you are confused and your statement is orthodox propaganda. If your meaning is the latter, then please explain: ...



Then you go on to list four obscure questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the OP's original question.


I've seen other posts by you, and you are quite in the habit of being rude, hijacking threads, and generally being obnoxious.


Now, if you have something to offer in the way of insight regarding OT rituals, laws, or sacrifice, please feel free to contribute.  Otherwise, I'm done with you.

I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.  Thomas Jefferson

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein

You can get anything you want out of life if you will just help enough other people get what they want. Zig Ziglar

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/29/opinion/why-i-m-for-the-brady-bill.html
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4 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2010 - 3:03PM #29
Heterodoxus
Posts: 145

Mar 28, 2010 -- 4:30PM, Unworthyone wrote:


Mar 23, 2010 -- 6:07PM, Heterodoxus wrote:


Where did you see that I made any demand?



It was right there in post #11:


But, if you're using "Christ" as the last name of Jesus rather than a Hebrew messianic title, then you are confused and your statement is orthodox propaganda. If your meaning is the latter, then please explain: ...



Apparently you don't know the difference between a demand and a request. HINT: the word please in the phrase "then please explain" clearly indicates that my words were a request, not a demand.


If you do not know this difference, then you likely do not understand the differences between--or the nuances in--meanings of key Christian words, terms, and phrases. Ergo, I'll say this as tactfully and succinctly as I'm able: opinions, like noses, need to be carefully picked and flicked discreetly. Do thou likewise!


To save you further self-embarrassment, and to avoid being further verbally assaulted by your flickings, your postings (i.e., your usually incorrect assumptions and unsupported opinions, which are best kept to yourself) are herewith blocked from my screen. Any response by you to this message will be reported as disruptive, rude, crude, and socially unacceptable.


Now, go ye forth and buy an English dictionary!

One of the first duties of a Christian theologian should be to remind people to not read the Bible.
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