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5 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2010 - 7:45PM #51
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,954

Feb 1, 2010 -- 6:06PM, Blü wrote:


Every time you drop into troll mode you ridicule my attempts to engage you in intelligent conversation.


So be it.




Maybe some people can't go where they can't go.Wink

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2010 - 7:11AM #52
MisterC
Posts: 1,865

Teihard wrote: "You ( apparently ) regard "Tacitus" as THE ( only ... ??? ) History Authority on The First Century Mediterranean Region ... I do NOT ..."


1. Tacitus wrote at a time when he could have had access to at least two, possibly four of the gospels, so one can not use him as an independent source. (The same is true of Seutonius... Josephus would have had access to at least one when he wrote Antiquities... There are no certain independent first, early second century sources outside the proto-Christian writings.)


2. D. Doughty showed that the Tacitus story was probably an interpolation.


Dennis

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2010 - 12:28PM #53
teilhard
Posts: 50,876

Feb 1, 2010 -- 6:06PM, Blü wrote:


teilhard


Every time you drop into troll mode you ridicule my attempts to engage you in intelligent conversation.


So be it.



Brother Blu --


I do NOT "ridicule" you in ANY Respect ... I simply DISAGREE


with your a priori "Materialist"-"Atheist" World-View Assumptions ...

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2010 - 4:50PM #54
Blü
Posts: 24,869

teilhard


If that's true then why haven't you offered a reasoned response to the OP?


Vague generalities won't do it

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2010 - 5:06PM #55
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,954

Feb 2, 2010 -- 4:50PM, Blü wrote:


If that's true then why haven't you offered a reasoned response to the OP?


Vague generalities won't do it




It's the language of trolls. Feeding them only encourages them. Laughing

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2010 - 5:10PM #56
Blü
Posts: 24,869

RJM


We'll see when teilhard responds.

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 12:38PM #57
teilhard
Posts: 50,876

Dec 28, 2009 -- 6:19PM, Blü wrote:


The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus as an historical event is of very poor quality.  It's no more capable of persuading an impartial onlooker that such an event happened in history than any other of the resurrection stories of antiquity.


The initial problem

An historical Jesus has never been definitively found.  If in this thread I appear to speak as though he historically existed, it's only so as to discuss the evidence of the resurrection in isolation from this problem.


The 'Usual Story' problem

Resurrections are routine in tales from the ancient world.

In the bible stories -
* Samuel came back after his death and spoke with Saul.  (You could argue he was a ghost, not a bodily resurrection.) 
* Elijah raised the Zarephath woman’s son.
* Elisha raised the Shamite woman’s son.
* The man whose dead body touched Elisha's bones was resurrected.
* Jesus raised the Nain widow’s son.
* Jesus raised Lazarus. 
* Peter raised Tabitha / Dorcas. 
* Matthew describes the faithful dead at large in the streets of Jerusalem. 

Elsewhere - and this is only a tiny sample - Osiris in Egypt, Tammuz in Babylon, Dionusos in Greece were put to death and came back to life.  In Greece, Asklepios raised Lukourgos, Kapaneos and Tundareos from the dead, and Glaukos, Hippolutos and Orion were resurrected too - as indeed was Asklepios himself.  Eurudike (and in Scandanavia, Baldur) nearly made it back. Persephone and Adonis had to spend only half their time in the Underworld.


The miracle problem

No examinable evidence suggests, let alone demonstrates, that supernatural beings exist in reality - gods, angels, souls, magicians, goblins, werewolves and so on, none of them.

But miracles are not just breaches of the rules of the natural world - they're purposeful interventions in the natural world by supernatural beings.

The evidence necessary to establish a miracle must therefore be of extraordinary quality - sufficient to establish a category never previously shown to exist.  For that reason, virtually ANY non-supernatural explanation is vastly more probable than a supernatural one.  (If you doubt this, next time you're hauled into court on a traffic matter, try running the defense, A supernatural being seized the controls from me.)

Hence (on the assumption that an historical Jesus existed at all) all of the following possibilities are vastly more probable explanations of the resurrection of Jesus than the supernatural ones in the NT -


1* The body of Jesus was never placed in the tomb.
2* The body of Jesus was stolen from the tomb.
3* Jesus wasn't dead.  He recovered consciousness and left.
4* Whoever reported the body missing went to the wrong tomb.
5** or was mistaken
6** or altered his report to accord with his wishes
7** or set out to deceive.
8* Whoever spread the story of the missing body was acting on a false or mistaken report
9** or altered the report to accord with his wishes
10** or set out to deceive
11** or made up the story intending a metaphor
12** or made up the story but didn't intend it to be taken literally.
13* The story is a Jewish satire.
14* Or any other non-supernatural explanation.



Easy to see that it's impossible to rule any of them out on the basis of the NT accounts.


The incredibility of the NT accounts

Quite apart from the supernatural aspect, the five NT accounts are incredible for other reasons.  If you went to court relying on evidence of that quality, you'd be thrown out before you could open your mouth.

First, none of the accounts is (or even purports to be) an eyewitness account.

Second, none of the accounts is contemporary with the event.  If we use the traditional date for the crucifixion, 33 CE, then Paul's account is at least 17 years after the event and consists ONLY of the assertion that Jesus was crucified - he never says where, when, why or by whom.  Mark's account is next, and no earlier than 70 CE, so at least 37 years later. John's (the last) is at least 67 years later.

Third, none of the NT accounts is an independent report.  (And outside the NT, I discount the Testimonium Flavianum as very probably a forgery.)

And fourth, each of the five NT accounts of the resurrection conflicts in major ways with the other four.


The incompatibility of the five biblical resurrection accounts


Here's a list of incompatible claims in the five resurrection accounts in the NT.  (Paul's account is at 1 Corinthians 15.)  It's not exhaustive.

1.  Who went to the tomb?

Paul:  -
Mark:       Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus, Salome
Matthew: MM, MmJ
Luke:       MM, MmJ, Joanna
John:       MM



2.  What did they see?


Paul:       -
Mark:      Open tomb
Matthew: An earthquake.  An angel descending who rolled away the stone and sat on it.  He looked like lightning, his raiment white as snow
Luke:      Open tomb
John:      Open tomb



3.  Were any guards there?
           
Paul:          -
Mark:        No.
Matthew:   The guards trembled.
Luke:        No
John:         No


4.  What did they do?

Paul:         -
Mark:        Went in.
Matthew:   -
Luke:        Went in
John:        Ran to fetch Peter and the Beloved Disciple who ran to the tomb and saw the linen



5.  Did they see anyone in or at the tomb?

Paul:        -
Mark:       Saw one young man in a white robe.  Told Jesus had risen, and would meet the disciples at Galilee
Matthew: Addressed by an angel.  Told Jesus had risen, and would meet the disciples at Galilee.
Luke:      Saw two men in dazzling apparel.  Told Jesus was risen.
John:      No.


6.  What did they do next?

Paul:        -
Mark:       They fled in fear.
Matthew:  They left.
Luke:       They went and told the eleven but weren't believed.
John:        Peter and the Beloved Disciple went home.



7.  To whom did Jesus first appear?

Paul:        Peter
Mark:       MM
Matthew:  MM and MmJ
Luke:       'Cleopas' (= Cephas/Peter?) and Simon
John:       MM



8.  How?

Paul:         -
Mark:        As MM fled.
Matthew:   As MM and MmJ were going home.  He told them he'd meet the disciples at Galilee.   
Luke:        As Cleopas and Simon walked to Emmaus.  They didn’t recognize him.  That night at dinner he broke the bread and they realized who he was.
John:        At the tomb.  MM mistook him for the gardener.  Then she recognized him.  He said, 'Inform my brethren'.



9.  What did the guards do?

Paul:         -
Mark:        -
Matthew:  Told the chief priests.  Were paid to say, Disciples stole the body.
Luke:        -
John:        -



10.  What did the others do?

Paul:         -
Mark:        -
Matthew:  The eleven went to Galilee.
Luke:        Went to Jerusalem, told the disciples &c.
John:        MM told the disciples.



11.  To whom did Jesus second appear?

Paul:         The twelve [sic].
Mark:        'two of them'.
Matthew:   The eleven.
Luke:        The eleven and others.
John:        The disciples and others


12.  Where?

Paul:        -
Mark:       -
Matthew:  At Galilee
Luke:       While MM, MmJ and Joanna were reporting to the eleven.
John:       At table, with doors shut


13.  With what result?

Paul:         -
Mark:        The two told the others but weren't believed.
Matthew:  They worshiped him but some doubted.  He told them to preach to all nations.
Luke:        They thought he was a ghost.  He reassured them.  He led them to Bethany.  He was carried up to heaven.
John:        They were glad.  He gave them the Holy Spirit and power to forgive.


14.  To whom did Jesus third appear?


Paul:        The five hundred.
Mark:        The eleven at table.  He upbraided them for their disbelief.  He told them signs - demons, tongues, serpents, poisons.   He went up to heaven.
Matthew:   *
Luke:        *
John:        At the same house as before, with the doors locked.  He reassured Thomas.


15.  To whom did Jesus fourth appear?


Paul:        James
Mark:        *
Matthew:   *
Luke:        *
John:        Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, the BD and another disciple.  They didn’t recognize him at first.  They caught lots of fish.  They recognized him at breakfast.  They argued over the Beloved Disciple waiting till Jesus returned.  


 


16.  To whom did Jesus fifth appear?

Paul:         All the apostles.


17.   Where did Jesus ascend to heaven?

Mark:       Galilee
Luke:        Bethany


 


Conclusion


You can get to the resurrection by faith.


You can't get there through history.



According to The First Century Greek Testament Documents, People who KNEW The Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth BELIEVED -- on basis of actual Experience ( EVENTS ) -- that He WAS Resurrected ... Paul gives the NAMES of SOME of those Witnesses ... Get Over It ...

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 6:37PM #58
Blü
Posts: 24,869

teilhard


According to The First Century Greek Testament Documents, People who KNEW The Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth BELIEVED -- on basis of actual Experience ( EVENTS ) -- that He WAS Resurrected ...


You don't address any of the problems I've set out - the commonplace nature of such claims to indicate supernatural status, the innate incredibility of the claim if asserted as a fact, the total lack of eyewitnesses hence the dependence on tales, the incompatibility of the tales ...


 


Paul gives the NAMES of SOME of those Witnesses ... Get Over It ...


Where exactly does Paul say, X told me he was present at the resurrection ?

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 7:15PM #59
teilhard
Posts: 50,876

Feb 3, 2010 -- 6:37PM, Blü wrote:


teilhard


According to The First Century Greek Testament Documents, People who KNEW The Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth BELIEVED -- on basis of actual Experience ( EVENTS ) -- that He WAS Resurrected ...


You don't address any of the problems I've set out - the commonplace nature of such claims to indicate supernatural status, the innate incredibility of the claim if asserted as a fact, the total lack of eyewitnesses hence the dependence on tales, the incompatibility of the tales ...


 


Paul gives the NAMES of SOME of those Witnesses ... Get Over It ...


Where exactly does Paul say, X told me he was present at the resurrection ?



You wouldn't BELIEVE them if they DID ... would you ... ???

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 11:14PM #60
Blü
Posts: 24,869

teilhard


You wouldn't BELIEVE them if they DID ... would you ... ???


You don't have them so no such question arises.


 


Oh, and where does Paul say X told me he was at the resurrection and he saw the whole thing ?


You should at least try not to make things up.

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