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8 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2009 - 2:30PM #11
peterthesplitfish
Posts: 1,609

Shalom ?? (not sure what to call you, but I'm not calling you G-d),


The letter of the Law is not as important as the spirit of the Law. Yeshua spoke often concerning this that he was a fulfillment of the Law not ending the Law. When one looks so literally at each word and phrase and ponders it so, one can miss the spiritual point of what is written, which is elementary at best. The greater spiritual concepts do not need a written book at all for one can gain from the source. Yeshua spoke of going back to the 'root' or the 'source' because that is where you want to learn from, as in the one teacher that is within. Arguing over the Greek text when it was written in sacred Hebrew is almost fruitless. I say almost fruitless because of the reference to the Tree of Life what we all must bear. Do not harden your heart so much that you would argue over a word just to pat your ego on the back and leave the spirit wondering why. What He-man is doing is good for those who are still on the elementary level, and it is better to have some semblance of the more correct version then what the Roman Catholic church passes off as holy. Constantine had the texts rewritten to make them more pagan and Mirthic for his own pagan beliefs. The true followers of Yeshua and TheWay were killed by his soldiers to shut them up, but he failed to acknowledge on the main teachings of TheWay and that is Transmigration of the Soul. So while he killed the followers in the fourth century, they continue to this day to return in other forms (thus the clay that the potter forms can be crushed to dust and remade in another image). Not only where the texts altered in little ways, but whole passages were removed and can be found again for those who are true seekers of TheWay.


Peter M.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2009 - 5:36PM #12
he-man
Posts: 3,869

Jul 31, 2009 -- 2:30PM, peterthesplitfish wrote:


Shalom ?? (not sure what to call you, but I'm not calling you G-d),


The letter of the Law is not as important as the spirit of the Law. The true followers of Yeshua and TheWay were killed by his soldiers to shut them up, but he failed to acknowledge on the main teachings of TheWay and that is Transmigration of the Soul. So while he killed the followers in the fourth century, they continue to this day to return in other forms (thus the clay that the potter forms can be crushed to dust and remade in another image). Not only where the texts altered in little ways, but whole passages were removed and can be found again for those who are true seekers of TheWay. Peter M.


transmigration μετεμψύχωση is reincarnation of a human soul, which is an impossibility.


A. The soul that sinneth shall die.


Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


B. Ec 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


C. Ec 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


Ps 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?


D.2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


You do not go anywhere until Christ returns to awaken you.

1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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8 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2009 - 5:55PM #13
God_Is_A_Tarradiddle
Posts: 74

Jul 31, 2009 -- 9:51AM, he-man wrote:

Not loooking for cigars, simply the truth: ... Vaticanus ... Nomina Sacra; ... Citta del Vaticano; ... Sinaiticus; ... Clement ... Jerome ... Catholic Epistles


I'm sure, but just look at the names you cited?  If you're trying to find/present "truth," why are you coming from such a one-sided, one church, perspective?


 

Goodness and kindness do no harm or hurt; ergo, being kind and good to one another fulfills the requirements and expectations of both the laws of Man and the Word expressed and demonstrated by Jesus and others (cf: Romans 13:10).
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8 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2009 - 6:41PM #14
God_Is_A_Tarradiddle
Posts: 74

Jul 31, 2009 -- 5:36PM, he-man wrote:

reincarnation of a human soul ... is an impossibility.


Is it?


the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


And if the "soul" of an infant doesn't sin, or if a sinful adult repents of his/her sins, isn't it possible that s/he might return as another soul/spirit sometime after their lifetime here?


the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


If it returns, that means it came. And if it came once, why couldn't it come again?


the dead know not any thing


And why should they know (remember) anything or anyone they left behind? Do they still have a purpose here? Why shouldn't they/we "return to sender" for reprogramming prior to returning here?


the memory of them is forgotten..... in death there is no remembrance of thee


Is it possible that the people who've forgotten the departed might have been themselves dead in heart and mind?


"Where is the promise of his coming?


Where is his coming? The promise of it has been with us since Jesus' Calvary Hill experience. We're still WAAAAItiiing!


for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


And we expect what? Jesus to come, kick ass and take names, and overthrow the Roman Church today, like Peter expected him to return and overthrow the Roman government then? Alas, and after Jesus instructed Peter--for his own safety from those who might think him insane and stone him--to tell no man that he thought Jesus was the Messiah, did Peter listen then? Do Christians listen and follow Jesus' instruction today?


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with ... the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first [as the heavenly choir and orchestra perform The Monster Mash for the SRO crowd of resurrected zombies].



Gimme a break! Yell


 

Goodness and kindness do no harm or hurt; ergo, being kind and good to one another fulfills the requirements and expectations of both the laws of Man and the Word expressed and demonstrated by Jesus and others (cf: Romans 13:10).
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8 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2009 - 11:23PM #15
peterthesplitfish
Posts: 1,609

Shalom He-man,


I am not going to sit here and listen to Mithric mumbo jumbo for that is what the Church of Rome turned into and that is what you are espousing in the above post. Yeshua did teach the concept of soul rebirth and transmigration of the soul. You can read those text literally or allegorically as they were intended to be read. You are doing as Paul said and the "letter that killeth" is what you are suffering from. I will give you a few passages that remained and one that was heavily altered.


Gospel of Thomas 84: Yeshua said, "When you see your likeness you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will bear!"


This is a warning to those who then do enter into the inner kingdom for you will see that your soul is made up of each experience that it lived in a clay vessel. When the soul breaths out it becomes a human person, when it breaths in, that person dies and the soul returns to whence it came to breath yet again. Each life is but a day in to the soul, an experience that becomes a part of the soul as it develops over many lives until it is completed in the Laws and then can rest. Yeshua said to the man working on the Sabbath, if you knew what the Sabbath was and you worked what a greater sin that would be. The Sabbath is not a day of 24 hours, but the final rest of the soul, like the soul of Yeshua, you is the fulfillment of the Law and is now at rest. 


When the disciples met up with Yeshua about Yochannon the Baptizer, they asked who he was, Elijah, Moshe, or who? That is your first clue in the Gospel about transmigration of the soul.


This next one you probably will dismiss, but it was in the original gospel written in Hebrew and held by the Nazirenes and Ebionites.


Gospel of the Nazirene 37:


 


The Re-Generation of the Soul


[See John 3:1-13]


1 Yeshua {Jesus} sat in the porch of the temple, and some came to learn His doctrine,


and one said to Him,


Master, what do you teach concerning life?


2 And He said to them,


Blessed are they who suffer many experiences, for they will be made perfect


through suffering; they will be as the angels of God in heaven and will die no more.


Neither will they be born any more, for death and birth have no more dominion over


them. [† 37:2] 3 They who have suffered and have overcome will be made pillars of


the temple of my God, and they will go out no more. [*] I say to you, Except you


be born again of water and of fire, you cannot see the kingdom of God.’ ”


4 And a certain Rabbi, Nicodemus, came to Him by night for fear of the Yehudim


{Judæans | Jews}, and said to Him,


How can a man be born again when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his


mother's womb and be born again?


5 Yeshua {Jesus} answered


Except a man be born again of flesh and of spirit, he can not enter into the


kingdom of God. The wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound of it, but


can not tell from where it comes or to where it goes. 6 The light shines from the East


even to the West; out of the darkness. The sun rises and sets into darkness again; so


is it with man, from the ages to the ages. 7 When it cometh from the darkness, it is


that he has lived before, and when it goes down again into darkness, it is that he


may rest for a little, and there after again exist. 8 So through many changes must you


be made perfect, as it is written in the book of Iyov {Job},


I am a wanderer, changing place after place and house after house, until I come


into the city and mansion which is eternal.’ ” [**] [~Iyov {Job} 9:2]


9 And Nicodemus said to him,


How can these things be?


And Yeshua {Jesus} answered,




You are a teacher in Yisrael {Israel}, and do not understand these things? Truly,


we speak that which we know, and bear witness to that which we have seen, and


you do not receive our witness. 10 If I tell you of earthly things, and you do not


believe, how will you believe if I tell you of heavenly things? No one ascends into


heaven, unless they descended out of heaven, even the son or daughter of man


which is in Heaven.


* See Revelation 3:12


“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go


no more out: ... ”


† 37:2 “Blessed are they who suffer many experiences, for they will be made perfect


through suffering; they will be as the angels of God in heaven and will die no more.


Neither will they be born any more, for death and birth have no more dominion over


them.


This is in reference to the reincarnation of the soul until it has been made perfect through its many


experiences.


** According to the Septuagint (LXX), Job 9:2 reads:


After a long time had passed, Job's wife said “How long wilt thou be patient,


saying, ‘Lo, let me endure yet a little while, awaiting the hope of my salvation? For


behold, thy memorial is vanished from the earth, even sons and daughters, the


throes and labors of my womb, for whom I have wearied myself in vain with toils:


and thou thyself in corruption of worms sittest all night in the open air, while I am


a wanderer and a servant, from place to place, and from house to house, awaiting


the sun when it will set, that I may rest from my labors and the pains which now


straiten me’: but say some word against the Lord, and die.


www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/112/1120032...


www.sacred-texts.com/gno/fff/fff30.htm


The passage of Job is also quoted by Church Father Hippolytus in his Refutation of All Heresies, Book


VIII, 3, noting the Gnostic implications: And that these things are so, says (the Docetic), it is possible


also to perceive from Job, when he uses the following words: And I am a wanderer, changing both


place after place, and house after house.


The implications of this are great as you should know. The Church of Rome that rewrote the Gospel for Constantine did so because he was a heathen Mithric Idol worshiper who turned Yeshua into a god and what he could change in the text he did so. What he didn't agree with was burned. Who he didn't agree with were killed. What wasn't built in history he constructed as idol temples for his new paganism to worship in. You have witness the alterations yourself, and yet you cannot get past the the dogma and doctrine of the Church that created it. Yeshua did not want a new church. That is not why he came as he did. He and Ya'cov were spiritual brothers and Yeshua approved the gospel Ya'cov wrote before, yes, BEFORE he went to his rest. The gospel is NOT historical but Gnostic and allegorical and spiritual on ever level for everyone is on their own rung of the ladder of higher knowledge. 


Peter M.



 


 

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 01, 2009 - 9:42AM #16
he-man
Posts: 3,869

Jul 31, 2009 -- 11:23PM, peterthesplitfish wrote:

Yeshua did teach the concept of soul rebirth and transmigration of the soul.
Gospel of Thomas 84: Gospel of the Nazirene 37:See John 3:1-13]
When the disciples met up with Yeshua about Yochannon the Baptizer, they asked who he was, Elijah, Moshe, or who? That is your first clue in the Gospel about transmigration of the soul.


Yes, indeed, let us LOOK at John especially, verse 17:13:


Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit


9  Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Jul 31, 2009 -- 11:23PM, peterthesplitfish wrote:

they asked who he was, Elijah, Moshe, or who?


   And his disciples asked him saying, “Then why do the scribes say that Elias first must come?” 
 But answering he said, “Elijah indeed  comes, and will restore all things.
 But I say to you that Elias now came, and they did not know him, but did by him as much as they wished. Thus also the Son of Man shall suffer by them.” 
 Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them concerning John the dipper. Mt 17:10-13


Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


Mal 3:1 ¶  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.


Isa 40:3 ¶  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the wilderness a way for our God.


Gospel of Thomas 84: Gospel of the Nazirene 37 These books were never accepted in the canons and still are not accepted.


Comparing Mark you can see Jesus spoke of his resurrection from out of the dead:


 9:9 They understood from the mountain, and he enjoined them that they should relate to no one what they saw, except when the Son of man should be resurrected out of the dead.
  9:10 And they kept the word to themselves, discussing what that is, to be resurrected out of the dead.
  9:11 And they asked him, saying, That the teachers of the Law say that Elias comes to witness first?
  9:12 And he answered them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and restores all things. And how is it written for the Son of Man, that he should suffer many things and should be killed?
  9:13 But I say to you that Elias has come, and they will do to him, as many as wanted,   even as it is written for him."


Even Herod believed it was JOHN:


Mk 6:15 And others said, “That he is Elias.” And others said, “That he prophecies as one of the prophets.”

6:16 And Herod having heard, he said, "John, whom I beheaded, has been raised."


8:28 And they said to him, that they say John the dipper: and others, Elias; and that others, one of the prophets.
29 And he said to them, `And you -- who do you say me to be?' and Peter answering said to him, `You are the Anointed.'


 Mt 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


Isa 40:3 ¶  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the wilderness a way for our God.


Rev 19:16) And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


 


 

1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 01, 2009 - 10:53PM #17
peterthesplitfish
Posts: 1,609

This is where we must part then for I am not going to sit here an argue about texts that are allegorical and not historical. Until you understand that Yeshua is not a god and that that is simply a rule of Constantine, you remain spiritually flat-lined. The Canon is a manmade doctrine of the Church of Rome not the teachings of Yeshua. The Church of Rome is simply remanufactured Mithric paganism not the teachings of Yeshua. What you are doing is committing spiritual suicide by limiting yourself to a literal interpretation of The Bible that is simply the blanket over the real spiritual world hidden within. The Church worships the blanket and denies the inner allegory. The Bible is a manmade document and some of it is good while other parts are not so good because some parts came from people who gathered their writings directly from the source, the one teacher within, but other parts like the later letters of pseudo-Paul are not so good because they are more guess work then truly spiritual. 


Peter M

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 02, 2009 - 5:45PM #18
he-man
Posts: 3,869

Aug 1, 2009 -- 10:53PM, peterthesplitfish wrote:


This is where we must part then for I am not going to sit here an argue about texts that are allegorical and not historical. Until you understand that Yeshua is not a god and that that is simply a rule of Constantine, you remain spiritually flat-lined. The Canon is a manmade doctrine of the Church of Rome not the teachings of Yeshua. The Church of Rome is simply remanufactured Mithric paganism not the teachings of Yeshua. What you are doing is committing spiritual suicide by limiting yourself to a literal interpretation of The Bible that is simply the blanket over the real spiritual world hidden within. The Church worships the blanket and denies the inner allegory. The Bible is a manmade document and some of it is good while other parts are not so good because some parts came from people who gathered their writings directly from the source, the one teacher within, but other parts like the later letters of pseudo-Paul are not so good because they are more guess work then truly spiritual. Peter M


As you wish!


And his disciples asked him saying, “Then why do the scribes say that Elias first must come?” 
 But answering he said, “Elijah indeed  comes, and will restore all things.
 But I say to you that Elias now came, and they did not know him, but did by him as much as they wished. Thus also the Son of Man shall suffer by them.” 
 Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them concerning John the dipper. Mt 17:10-13


Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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8 years ago  ::  Aug 02, 2009 - 6:13PM #19
peterthesplitfish
Posts: 1,609

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with this post. The scripture depicts an allegory of spiritual development from one soul development to another.


 


Peter M.

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8 years ago  ::  Aug 02, 2009 - 6:15PM #20
he-man
Posts: 3,869

Jul 26, 2009 -- 5:31PM, Clootie wrote:


You can read the words, but what do they mean?


I have found most writing hermeneutics or biblical interpretation too academic for my mind.


Following is a brief piece that I can understand. It is an appendix in the book Evil, Anger, and God and I quote it with permission. You can read other excerpts on www.Google.com Book Search and www.Amazon.com for free.


This approach to biblical interpretation seems sound to me. What do you think?


________________Beginning of quotation_____________________


My Approach to Scripture (quoted from Evil, Anger, and God)


I "believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the Word of God," as stated in the Book of Common Prayer. Therefore, the Bible serves as the primary authority as well as the primary source for this book. Although the whole Bible owns primary authority, some passages wield more operative authority than others. Scripture wields operative authority as it becomes the operative verbal map by which people perceive their lives and circumstances.


Regarding the effect of faith in human life, some biblical authors, especially St. Paul, provide examples about the effects of faith in their lives, some of which are cited in this book.


__________________End of quotation___________________


I can hardly agree with your Book of Common Prayer since Christ himself says: Lu 23:46  And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he breathed out.


Your Book of Common Prayer greatly errs when it says: The Creed of Saint Athanasius And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. Page 865
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost Spirit is God. So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.


The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created,...Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man....begotten before the worlds  vidicon.dandello.net/bocp/ and O God the Son, Redeemer of the world, vidicon.dandello.net/bocp/bocp2.htm ...    UNQUOTE


Each tongue has its own history and genius.
 Parallel idioms may or may not exist in a group of languages. Sanskrit and Latin, for instance, have no article. It is not possible to parallel the Hebrew tenses, for example, with the Greek, nor, indeed, can it be done as between Greek and English.


The English translation of a Greek aorist may have to be in the past perfect or the present perfect to suit the English usage, but that proves nothing as to how a Greek regarded the aorist tense.

We must assume in a language that a good writer knew how to use his own tongue and said what he meant to say.

Good Greek may be very poor English, as when Luke uses εν τω εισαγαγειν τους γονεις το παιδίον Ιησουν (Lu. 2:27). A literal translation of this neat Greek idiom makes barbarous English.

“One of the commonest and gravest errors in studying the grammar of foreign languages is to make a half-conjectural translation, and then reason back from our own language to the meaning of the original; or to explain some idiom of the original by the formally different idiom which is our substantial equivalent.

As a result when one compares N. T. Greek one must be careful to note whether it is with the book Greek (καθαρεύουσα) or the vernacular (θμιλουμένη). Moulton, Prol., p. 26.


For a more careful study see the following:


The Codex Vaticanus, written in approximately the 4th century, and kept in the Vatican Library at Rome.

The Codex Sinaiticus , sold to a British Museum in 1933, it is said to have been written in the late 4th century. The Codex Alexandrinus was written in approximately the first part of the 5th century, now in the British Museum.

Also, keep in mind that what are called the oldest manuscripts available  out date the Majority Texts by more than fourteen hundred years.

T
he Greek New Testament, 4th Revised Edition with Dictionary, Edited by Barbara & Kurt Arland, Johannes Karavidopoulos, Carlo Martini, and Bruce Metzger;


James Strong, Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (Nashville: Abington-Cokesbury Press, 1890) and Joseph Henry Thayer, trans, A Greek-English Lexicon (Grimm), Second Edition-Revised (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1890).


Word Study Greek-English New Testament with complete Strong Concordance, Paul R. McReynolds, Tyndale House Publishers, 1999;


Emphatic Diaglot according to the recension of Dr. J.J. Griesbach, based on the Vatican Manuscript;


A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of  Historical Research BY A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., LL.D., LITT.D.;


Number in Scripture Its Supernatural Design and Spiritual Significance By E. W. Bullinger (1837-1913) Fourth Edition, Revised; London; Eyre & Spottiswoode (Bible Warehouse) Ltd. 33. Paternoster Row, 1921


A CONCORDANCE OF EUSEBIUS’ ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY:
With attention given to the text of The Apostolic Bible Polyglot online at Wikipedia.


Bible Research by Michael D. Marlowe / Textual Criticism / English Guide /
L Lachmann 1842
T Tischendorf 1869
Tr Tregelles 1857
A Alford 1849 as revised in 1871
WHt  Westcott & Hort 1881; King James version is given as a likely alternative
N Collation in progress of Nestle 1927 as revised in 1941 (17th).
NA Nestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)

1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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