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Switch to Forum Live View Is God omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent?
4 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2010 - 4:43PM #81
world citizen
Posts: 5,385

Jan 29, 2010 -- 5:03PM, Marcion wrote:


The OT tells us God is one, yet in Genesis God says, "behold the man now he is as one of us, knowing good and evil. Who is the us God is referring to?




My comprehension of this is that Moses, being an earlier Manifestation/Messenger of God who spoke the Word of God, wrote the first Books of the Bible using the same dual language as that spoken by Jesus.  Moses spoke and wrote the Word as given to him by God.  The "us" indicates that Moses (as with Jesus) had all of the same knowledge as God because of his divinity.

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 8:22PM #82
he-man
Posts: 3,869

Feb 1, 2010 -- 4:43PM, world citizen wrote:

Jan 29, 2010 -- 5:03PM, Marcion wrote:

The OT tells us God is one, yet in Genesis God says, "behold the man now he is as one of us, knowing good and evil. Who is the us God is referring to?



My comprehension of this is that Moses, being an earlier Manifestation/Messenger of God who spoke the Word of God, wrote the first Books of the Bible using the same dual language as that spoken by Jesus.  Moses spoke and wrote the Word as given to him by God.  The "us" indicates that Moses (as with Jesus) had all of the same knowledge as God because of his divinity.


Thank you but No, it was the Elohim [plural] who created you with God supervising the work! The word God is not in the Manuscripts but through a mis-understanding of the useage of the word "Elohim" the translators inserted the word "God".


In reply I quote the Hebrew from Genesis which actually reads:


Gen 1:27 Elohim created you man with a picture like shadow,  males and females Elohim formed you.


The Shadow is the Spirit, the vital principle or animating force within living things, which is to say that the Elohim formed man with the picture like Breath of Life or Spirit.


Here is the Hebrew: 


ויברא created אלהים Elohim את you -האדם man בצלמו photographic בצלם shadow אלהים Elohim ברא formed אתו with זכר males ונקבה females ברא formed אתם you


shadow; area protected from direct sunlight; tint, variation of a color; nuance, touch; to reduce glare; spirit, ghost  source: English - Greek Technical Dictionary


According to Stade and his followers, these were identical with the animistic theory of savages, which regards the soul as a sort of immaterial breath or shadow in which the life of the body exists source: Hebrew Views of the Nature of the Soul; ANCESTOR WORSHIP.


I, of course, believe that the LOGOS was the word of God, not the Christ, but just to show you the usage and the way the word was applied and could be applied to Christ:
The Logos is a kind of shadow cast by God, having the outlines but not the blinding light of the Divine Being. source; PHILO JUDÆUS: The Logos


 



1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2010 - 11:03AM #83
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,559

I guess no one wanted to respond to mine of:
Feb 01, 2010 - 10:01AM ...#80...But it looks like we are into ALL KNOWING....ALL POWERFUL.


Genesis 1:1...CREATION
"Elohim" , the generic plural for "God" allows for belief in the Christian view of a TRI-UNE God
and the pre-existence of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, God the Son.
Meaning? " strong one, mighty leader, supreme Deity " ?


The " LORD God", translated "YHWH", pronounced Yahweh (?) ..."I AM the one who is"...
was involved in Creation, and is profusely referred to (6000-7000 times?) in the Old Testament.
SEE: Genesis 2:4 et seq


One of my favorite places to show the Deity of Jesus is the "LOGOS" (WORD) as used by John in his Gospel.


He starts out in a fashion that reminds one of Genesis 1 and may be a song?


John 1 (NIV)....The Word (LOGOS) Became Flesh


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it....
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,(Jesus)
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth....
From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
For the law was given through Moses;
grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,(Jesus)
who is at the Father's side, has made him known.....


May Elohim, Yahweh, and the Logos make themselves clearly and personally known...ron

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2010 - 12:09PM #84
world citizen
Posts: 5,385

NIV John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,(Jesus)
who is at the Father's side, has made him known.....


KJV John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


The King James version makes much more sense and isn't contradictory.  Jesus cannot be "God the One and Only" if he is seated at the "Father's side," the Father being the One and Only to begin with.  Jesus was NOT the Father but the son.  The son being "in the bosom of the Father" implies a much closer relationship.  Why do the versions differ so greatly?

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2010 - 9:08PM #85
he-man
Posts: 3,869

Feb 4, 2010 -- 12:09PM, world citizen wrote:

NIV John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,(Jesus)
who is at the Father's side, has made him known.....
KJV John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


The King James version makes much more sense and isn't contradictory.  Jesus cannot be "God the One and Only" if he is seated at the "Father's side," the Father being the One and Only to begin with.  Jesus was NOT the Father but the son.  The son being "in the bosom of the Father" implies a much closer relationship.  Why do the versions differ so greatly?


They did not have the 2nd Century  MSS


Joh 1:18 God is not seen at any time; the only begotten of God, the one in the gulf of the Father, he has made him known.


18 θν ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ┬ μονογενης θς  ┬ εις το  κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο


Codex Sinaiticus

1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 02, 2011 - 5:10PM #86
I_am_a_Truth_Seeker
Posts: 1

May 24, 2009 -- 9:49PM, Hobbes wrote:

 


I am considering Anselmian theism, which states that God is a being than which none greater can be thought. From this thesis has come the assumption that God is perfect, and that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.


One counter argument is rather famous: If God is omniscient, then He knows human suffering exists. If God is omnibenevolent, He wants to end our suffering. If God is omniscient, then He would end human suffering. Human suffering continues. Thus, God is either not omniscient, and does not know suffering exists, and, I would say, not omnipotent, because omnipotence would necessarily entail omniscience, and, thus He cannot stop our suffering, or God may be omniscient and omnipotent, but not omnibenevolent.


I would like to explore these concepts, assuming the historical accuracy of major events in the Old Testament, which, I think, contradicts the idea of omniscience, which, in turn, would contradict omnipotence. It is clear too, I believe, that if the Old Testament is historically accurate, then omnibenevolence is certainly out of the question. And, since God is not omnibenevolent, then He is not perfect.


I would appreciate comments on my view that a perfect god, i.e., omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, cannot exist.


SPECIAL NOTE: Because of my occupation, after this week, I may not be able to respond at times for several days. I apologize for this, but I will respond as quickly as my occupation permits.


@ Hobbes, Thanks so much for posing your intellectually challenging question about GOD. Hopefully, I will be able to give a little bit of my input on the topic with more respect for your curiosity and desire for understanding without regurgitating forced fed biblical beliefs and quotes. I do need to ask one question to you though…are you certain that you are 100% atheist or have you contemplated your possible leaning toward Agnosticism?


As for my input…I am not a “religious” person when it comes to the selection of one right belief system. I believe I am more spiritual because my belief in a GOD does not mean that I necessarily believe that a man like being is GOD, nor do I solely believe that GOD is male. I use the term GOD very loosely because I do not possess inherent or total omniscience in order for me to explain the existence of life, GOD, or the universe and beyond. Therefore, I try not to completely reject any ideal or contemplation of these existences. GOD can be any thing/ being/creature, everything, or nothing at all.  You are so very right when you wrote, “He who thinks they know it all, is a fool!”


My beliefs are eclecticism based, which includes (but are not limited to) mixed beliefs in Pantheism, Dualist Pantheism, Panentheism, and Theistic evolution. I believe we have much to learn from our world and have yet to discover the breadth of the beginning of life, Earth and time. I believe that theistic evolution needs to be contemplated further by mankind than what the average believer of Christianity wants. I also believe that the bible and other religious texts should re-examined and treated more as mythological stories for learning than GOD’s exact word of mouth. After all man tends to twist, change and morph things in order to fit the needs and personal beliefs of the people and the times. Who can honestly state that man, as necessary, did not manipulate these texts in order to control the masses? This is my personal belief of the Holy Bible. If it were not the case then there would not be numerous books purposefully left out and held from viewing by the average, everyday person.


I tend to try to maintain the positive belief that GOD is Great = G; Omnibenevolent, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscience = O; and a Deity = D.  However, as you stated, with these beliefs also comes the realization of self-contradictions when compared to the unexplainable and uncontrollable chaos, suffering etc. within our world. Life doesn’t make complete sense to us humans and sadly answers to these ever wondrous questions will always be sought by mankind especially in this day-in-age where science links mankind to ape through DNA causing us to pose the question of “Where did Adam and Eve come into play? Were they Neanderthal?” (www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43866502/ns/technol...)


Additionally, maybe humans have the inherent need to place human emotions and desired qualities upon GOD, such as omnibenevolence, omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience, in order for them to cope with their own confusion and insecurities for their lack of understanding. Is it so wrong to believe in the existence of something greater, which has powers far beyond the simple explanations of mankind yet without all the emotional attachments and weakness as mankind, such as anger and hatred? Who are we to question the compassion, strength or abilities of whatever or whoever created us when we ourselves cannot refrain from selfishness, judgment, insecurity, anger, hatred, prejudices, abuse, rape, murder, and self-destruction?


Maybe GOD understands that all aspects of creation, good and bad, is important or is simply a part of life for the survival of the fittest. Look at all the species living on/in the Earth. I ask is there one species that exists without life, death, pain and suffering? Are humans the only ones in which we assign the emotional stigmas to the existence of life? Has mankind itself created these stigmas by defining mankind’s survival needs and justifying what the majority of our evolutionary society believes to be right, wrong, good or evil? Or, is this what makes us special and has allowed us to begin our evolutional separation from other species?


Possibly, just possibly, GOD is not interfering because mankind must find its own path in order to continue the evolutionary processes required to reach an intellectualism that supersedes the current societal norm. Maybe Hell is on Earth and our evolution to greatness and societal change is not without pain and suffering because there can be no ideological evolution without pain and suffering happening in the process. Maybe our found abilities to distinguish good from evil, right from wrong, humanity from inhumanity is needed in order for many of us to advance further in the evolutionary process so that the much stronger and mentally advanced humans can leave behind the weaker sub-groups of humans that are incapable of further evolution and intellectual advancements.


More thoughts to ponder…we, as humans, know that suffering exists within our world. We, as humans, say that we want suffering to end. Sadly, much of this suffering is caused at the hands humans. Yet, human suffering continues to grow throughout the world while mankind continues to breed and bring more humans into this world full of suffering. I ask you how or why would GOD be solely blamed for the cause of human suffering or the lack of response to human suffering when it is truly at the fault of humanity itself and humans lack their own dedication to the end of suffering? Additionally, why would GOD be responsible for ending this suffering when it is mankind who needs to end it? GOD gave us life and GOD can takes away, but the paths we chose to follow while spending our time on Earth and our actions that we chose to make during that time are at the hands of our own cause. We humans are selfish and we tend to look for a scapegoat to place our blame and point our fingers, but we rarely look ourselves in the face and stand up to admit our faults. Much more of the world’s suffering is at the very fault of mankind alone and at some point humanity will have to be the ones to take the steps to end human suffering in our world.


Perfection is not a quality mankind truly knows the universal definition of and certainly a quality we are still so very far from acquiring. Therefore, we have no room to judge the quality of GOD’s perfection when GOD’s accomplishments far exceed and out-weigh that of our own. However, when it comes to destruction mankind is quite successful in our own right.


Whomever or whatever GOD is there is great wonders of creation surrounding us everywhere waiting for us to open our eyes to see it first hand and to experience it to the greatest of our abilities.

This all coming from a woman with Major Depressive Disorder, Social Anxiety Disorder, non-combative PTSD from molestations and rapes, Sjogren's Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Vertigo, Spinal Stenosis, Bulging disk, Chronic Fatigue, Chronic Pain and many other illnesses along with suicidal contemplation, and suicidal attempts. If I lost the belief in something greater than mankind then my attempts would become a success because my faith in mankind is troubled to say the least.

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 02, 2011 - 10:26PM #87
Hobbes
Posts: 93

I appreciate you input. However, it is late tonight (and after cocktail hour), so I will respond tomorrow. I look forward to a good discussion and exploration.

The unexaminned belief is not worth believing
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 10:04AM #88
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,559

THREAD:
 "...an omniperfect God (omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent) is internally inconsistent (self contradictory)...."


My Two or Three Cents Worth:


Some characteristics and attributes of the TRI-UNE God of Christ-followers may be rationally contradictory or unexplainably in conflict.


But that does not lessen my God.


That strengthens the power, majesty, mystery,
of the SPIRITUAL being that has manifested Himself to Mankind.


My TRI-UNE God IS:


1. Existent
2. Unified
3. Simple
4. Infinite
5. Eternal
6. Unchanging and unchangeable CHARACTER
7. All Present
8. All Sovereign
9. All Knowing
10. All powerful
11. Perfectly JUST
12. Perfectly LOVING / merciful
13. Perfectly TRUE / Truthful
14. Perfectly FREE
15. Perfectly separate and pure


I BELIEVE the TRI-UNE GOD has all of these attributes. Why? Like the song..."the Bible tells me so..."

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 1:36PM #89
Hobbes
Posts: 93

Aug 2, 2011 -- 5:10PM, I_am_a_Truth_Seeker wrote:

May 24, 2009 -- 9:49PM, Hobbes wrote:

 


I am considering Anselmian theism, which states that God is a being than which none greater can be thought. From this thesis has come the assumption that God is perfect, and that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.


One counter argument is rather famous: If God is omniscient, then He knows human suffering exists. If God is omnibenevolent, He wants to end our suffering. If God is omniscient, then He would end human suffering. Human suffering continues. Thus, God is either not omniscient, and does not know suffering exists, and, I would say, not omnipotent, because omnipotence would necessarily entail omniscience, and, thus He cannot stop our suffering, or God may be omniscient and omnipotent, but not omnibenevolent.


I would like to explore these concepts, assuming the historical accuracy of major events in the Old Testament, which, I think, contradicts the idea of omniscience, which, in turn, would contradict omnipotence. It is clear too, I believe, that if the Old Testament is historically accurate, then omnibenevolence is certainly out of the question. And, since God is not omnibenevolent, then He is not perfect.


I would appreciate comments on my view that a perfect god, i.e., omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, cannot exist.


SPECIAL NOTE: Because of my occupation, after this week, I may not be able to respond at times for several days. I apologize for this, but I will respond as quickly as my occupation permits.


@ Hobbes, Thanks so much for posing your intellectually challenging question about GOD. Hopefully, I will be able to give a little bit of my input on the topic with more respect for your curiosity and desire for understanding without regurgitating forced fed biblical beliefs and quotes. I do need to ask one question to you though…are you certain that you are 100% atheist or have you contemplated your possible leaning toward Agnosticism?


As for my input…I am not a “religious” person when it comes to the selection of one right belief system. I believe I am more spiritual because my belief in a GOD does not mean that I necessarily believe that a man like being is GOD, nor do I solely believe that GOD is male. I use the term GOD very loosely because I do not possess inherent or total omniscience in order for me to explain the existence of life, GOD, or the universe and beyond. Therefore, I try not to completely reject any ideal or contemplation of these existences. GOD can be any thing/ being/creature, everything, or nothing at all.  You are so very right when you wrote, “He who thinks they know it all, is a fool!”


My beliefs are eclecticism based, which includes (but are not limited to) mixed beliefs in Pantheism, Dualist Pantheism, Panentheism, and Theistic evolution. I believe we have much to learn from our world and have yet to discover the breadth of the beginning of life, Earth and time. I believe that theistic evolution needs to be contemplated further by mankind than what the average believer of Christianity wants. I also believe that the bible and other religious texts should re-examined and treated more as mythological stories for learning than GOD’s exact word of mouth. After all man tends to twist, change and morph things in order to fit the needs and personal beliefs of the people and the times. Who can honestly state that man, as necessary, did not manipulate these texts in order to control the masses? This is my personal belief of the Holy Bible. If it were not the case then there would not be numerous books purposefully left out and held from viewing by the average, everyday person.


I tend to try to maintain the positive belief that GOD is Great = G; Omnibenevolent, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscience = O; and a Deity = D.  However, as you stated, with these beliefs also comes the realization of self-contradictions when compared to the unexplainable and uncontrollable chaos, suffering etc. within our world. Life doesn’t make complete sense to us humans and sadly answers to these ever wondrous questions will always be sought by mankind especially in this day-in-age where science links mankind to ape through DNA causing us to pose the question of “Where did Adam and Eve come into play? Were they Neanderthal?” (www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43866502/ns/technol...)


Additionally, maybe humans have the inherent need to place human emotions and desired qualities upon GOD, such as omnibenevolence, omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience, in order for them to cope with their own confusion and insecurities for their lack of understanding. Is it so wrong to believe in the existence of something greater, which has powers far beyond the simple explanations of mankind yet without all the emotional attachments and weakness as mankind, such as anger and hatred? Who are we to question the compassion, strength or abilities of whatever or whoever created us when we ourselves cannot refrain from selfishness, judgment, insecurity, anger, hatred, prejudices, abuse, rape, murder, and self-destruction?


Maybe GOD understands that all aspects of creation, good and bad, is important or is simply a part of life for the survival of the fittest. Look at all the species living on/in the Earth. I ask is there one species that exists without life, death, pain and suffering? Are humans the only ones in which we assign the emotional stigmas to the existence of life? Has mankind itself created these stigmas by defining mankind’s survival needs and justifying what the majority of our evolutionary society believes to be right, wrong, good or evil? Or, is this what makes us special and has allowed us to begin our evolutional separation from other species?


Possibly, just possibly, GOD is not interfering because mankind must find its own path in order to continue the evolutionary processes required to reach an intellectualism that supersedes the current societal norm. Maybe Hell is on Earth and our evolution to greatness and societal change is not without pain and suffering because there can be no ideological evolution without pain and suffering happening in the process. Maybe our found abilities to distinguish good from evil, right from wrong, humanity from inhumanity is needed in order for many of us to advance further in the evolutionary process so that the much stronger and mentally advanced humans can leave behind the weaker sub-groups of humans that are incapable of further evolution and intellectual advancements.


More thoughts to ponder…we, as humans, know that suffering exists within our world. We, as humans, say that we want suffering to end. Sadly, much of this suffering is caused at the hands humans. Yet, human suffering continues to grow throughout the world while mankind continues to breed and bring more humans into this world full of suffering. I ask you how or why would GOD be solely blamed for the cause of human suffering or the lack of response to human suffering when it is truly at the fault of humanity itself and humans lack their own dedication to the end of suffering? Additionally, why would GOD be responsible for ending this suffering when it is mankind who needs to end it? GOD gave us life and GOD can takes away, but the paths we chose to follow while spending our time on Earth and our actions that we chose to make during that time are at the hands of our own cause. We humans are selfish and we tend to look for a scapegoat to place our blame and point our fingers, but we rarely look ourselves in the face and stand up to admit our faults. Much more of the world’s suffering is at the very fault of mankind alone and at some point humanity will have to be the ones to take the steps to end human suffering in our world.


Perfection is not a quality mankind truly knows the universal definition of and certainly a quality we are still so very far from acquiring. Therefore, we have no room to judge the quality of GOD’s perfection when GOD’s accomplishments far exceed and out-weigh that of our own. However, when it comes to destruction mankind is quite successful in our own right.


Whomever or whatever GOD is there is great wonders of creation surrounding us everywhere waiting for us to open our eyes to see it first hand and to experience it to the greatest of our abilities.

This all coming from a woman with Major Depressive Disorder, Social Anxiety Disorder, non-combative PTSD from molestations and rapes, Sjogren's Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Vertigo, Spinal Stenosis, Bulging disk, Chronic Fatigue, Chronic Pain and many other illnesses along with suicidal contemplation, and suicidal attempts. If I lost the belief in something greater than mankind then my attempts would become a success because my faith in mankind is troubled to say the least.


I am so sorry to read of your health issues. If I could make it better, I would not hesitate to do so.


I've written my thoughts on all your questions, with posting in mind. However, I got to your last paragraph and realized that I should not address your questions at all, because you seek a theological answer, and since I am an atheist, I can only state what I believe would prevail if a truely Benevolent God were to be the creator. In fact, I am in the final two chapters of a novel I'm writing on that very subject.


I believe you to be a truth seeker, but you want theological truth, which I cannot provide. However, no matter what I think about the gods, I know that you and I are children of the universe, and that you and I belong here, just as the greatest of stars and the smallest of animals. We belong, and we strive, even if it is ever too briefly.

The unexaminned belief is not worth believing
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 1:59PM #90
Hobbes
Posts: 93

@ Rgurley4,


Thanks for your input and welcome to my thread. You wrote that you believe the Biblical God to be



6. Unchanging and unchangeable CHARACTER
7. All Present
9. All Knowing
10. All powerful
11. Perfectly JUST
12. Perfectly LOVING / merciful
13. Perfectly TRUE / Truthful


Read of the genocide in the Book of Joshua and then explain how Yahwey's actions there were "just, and meriful."


Also, while you're about it, tell me how John 3:16 is compatible with the god of the old testiment who is "unchanging."



The unexaminned belief is not worth believing
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