| 5 years ago :: Sep 29, 2008 - 4:54AM #1 | |
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. The NT gives no physical description of Jesus at all. That omission rather strongly confirms the idea that none of the authors was an eyewitness - you'll recall that no one claims to be one - and adds further weight to the idea that there was no historical Jesus at all. This link discusses the point. One thing it says is -
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| 5 years ago :: Sep 29, 2008 - 12:34PM #2 | |
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I'm not certain that physical descriptions of the protagonists were a part of writings back then.
Mark's story, it seems to me, is as much parabolic allegory as anything else... The protagonist Jesus doesn't need a physical description. John's odd tale has Jesus being a heavenly envoy, so a physical desciption would not be neccesary (if possible). In the other two, Matt and Luke, we seem to find a need to follow up on Mark's "son of Mary" comments. They were probably sensitive to the rumors of Jesus being a mamzer. If there was a description of someone whose features were more Roman than Middle Eastern, it would, on one hand, assure that those rumors were true and, on the other, present this "son of God" in the same physical image as the Roman sons of God, the Caeasars. Naming the gospels... That tradition began in the second century. By the fourth century, Eusebius speaks of Mark being a buddy of Peter, Luke being a buddy of Paul, Matthew being one of the disciples and John (of the gospel, not Revelation) being a geezer writing about the early days of Jesus. Of course, this is high on myth making and low on veracity. You might be thinking of the drawing done for Discovery Channel, speaking of a modern image of Jesus. It caused quite a bit of controversy, as I recall. (I think there was even a Popular Science or Popular Mechanics that had the picture! It is under "2" at this link: http://www.insearchofjesus.org/faceofje … composites |
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| 5 years ago :: Sep 29, 2008 - 10:52PM #3 | |
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Mr C Yes, I agree - only a real historical Jesus could have a likeness; so the question is really whether the stories had any single tradition about his looks. Thanks for the gallery of modern Yoyzels - Ingmar, Lars, Gunnar and Sven all fresh from the shower. As you say, the face authentic to the era is the interesting one. That's not the 'bowed back and joined eyebrows' description I was thinking of, though, nor does my net searching mention anything of the kind, so it would appear to be a false report. The ancient Greek and Roman writers routinely comment on character traits, less so physical descriptions, which they tend to mention only where it seems directly relevant - such as how eg Horatius Cocles and Cicero came by their cognomina. Thus Plutarch tell us eg ‘... many also derided Galba, ... saying, that as soon as this wrinkled, bald-headed man should be seen publicly at Rome, they would think it an utter disgrace ever to have had such a Caesar’, but also that ‘Cimon ... was ... of a fairly handsome person, according to the poet Ion, tall and large, and let his thick and curly hair grow long’. Descriptions are much harder to find in Tacitus, of course. Still, if there were an historical Jesus, or a popular concept of one, is it unfair to think that at least one of the unknown number of gospel authors might have given a direct clue as to the physical presence of his hero instead of the fragments I mention above? |
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| 5 years ago :: Sep 30, 2008 - 2:48PM #4 | |
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"Still, if there were an historical Jesus, or a popular concept of one, is it unfair to think that at least one of the unknown number of gospel authors might have given a direct clue as to the physical presence of his hero instead of the fragments I mention above?"
It is interesting that there isn't. I think it would depend to some extent on exactly "what" the gospels are. I don't think there is a real consensus on what they are. I tend, like Thomas L. Thompson, to see the books as being more metaphorical, an amalgamation of Ancient Near East myths than, for instance, biography. We can also see the kinship of the first written, Mark, to the Greek hero genre or to the epic. If, however, there was a "historical Jesus," what about him made him historical? Apparently not anything to do with any physical attributes (like for instance, the mythical Samson). |
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| 5 years ago :: Oct 09, 2008 - 12:51PM #5 | |
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Blü, The Letter of Lentulus is presented in English translation in J. K. Elliott's New Testament Apocrypha: A Collection of Apocryphal Christian Literature in an English Translation Based on M. R. James (Oxford: Oxford UP, 1993), pages 542-543. Elliott describes the letter this way:
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| 5 years ago :: Oct 10, 2008 - 12:15AM #6 | |
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MrC Yes, the argument that he was physically slight, or not prepossessing, or even handicapped, is easier to make (from those few little inferences I mentioned) than that he was a Jewish Herakles. The elusiveness of the description, the lack of a concept of his physical presence, is (as we all seem to agree) another little weight on the 'no historical Jesus' side of the scale. Costrel Thanks for the clarification on the purported Lentulus description. Simply by reading it, it comes across as another of those transparent far-too-good-to-be-true stories so beloved by Christian forgers. Thanks too for the possibility that I'm thinking of Paul with crooked back and eyebrows that meet. It's probably as authentic as everything else we're talking about. Thinking about your note on long hair being out of favor in the 3rd cent CE, I checked out the images of Roman emperors. From Julius (acceded 49 BCE) to Traian (died 117 CE) they were all depicted as short-haired and clean-shaven. That covers the era of Jesus, Paul and the gospel writers. From Hadrian (117-) to Caracalla (-217) they're all shown as bearded but not particularly long-haired. In the first half of the third century (217 to 250) we have 12 cleanskins, 1 mo and 2 beards. In the second half (250 to 307) we have 2 cleanskins and 10 beards. And 307-337 we have the clean-shaven Constantine I. As for Jesus, here's a gallery of images from very early on - click to enlarge. They seem to support the sky-god aspect. |
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| 5 years ago :: Oct 11, 2008 - 4:47PM #7 | |
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I am surprised no one has mentioned Robert Eisler's _Messiah Jesus & John the Baptist_ (1931).
He combines the descriptions found or hinted at in the Letter of Lentulus, Slavonc Josephus (he thinks it preserves remnants of the lost Aramaic original of his _War_, which I now doubt is the case), fragments of actual arrest warrents discovered in ancient Egyptan garbage dumps, and the Jewish Toledoth Jesu, Talmud & Midrash. He also looks at info in Origen, Augustine and Christian art in general. There is also a discussion about descriptions of Paul, and how characteristics attributed to Paul (his thorns in his flesh) being transferred to Jesus in art, etc. Eisler can be mighty speculative, but he dredges up a lot of interesting info. Most sources say Jesus (as well as Paul) was 3 cubits tall (most ancient cubits were about 18 inches, so a bit less than 5 feet tall). DCH |
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| 5 years ago :: Oct 12, 2008 - 7:38AM #8 | |
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DCH 1931 (I also found the date 1929) seems long enough ago for Herr Eisler's book to have been processed pretty thoroughly by the academic mill, so I'd guess his speculations were deemed to be just such. Five feet tall was a very usual height back then - Greek and Roman soldiers have left us skeletons and armor appropriate to that size and no doubt there are other researches as well. |
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| 5 years ago :: Oct 12, 2008 - 3:05PM #9 | |
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Blu,
_The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist_ (London: Methuen & Co, 1931) is Alexander Krappe's abridged English Translation of Eisler's _BASILEUS OU BASILEUSAS: Die messianische Unabhaengigkeitsbewegung vom Auftreten Johannes des Taeufers bis zum Untergagg Jakobs des Gerechten_ (2 vols, Heidelberg: Carl Winter, 1929-30). Of course, I wonder if something like this is where the expression "Where did you read that Krappe?" came from. DCH
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| 5 years ago :: Oct 12, 2008 - 9:23PM #10 | |
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For all we know, Jesus might have looked like Blu there, like a guy hit by a sack of flour.
:) |
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