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Switch to Forum Live View How are Jews forgiven sin?
6 years ago  ::  May 18, 2008 - 8:23PM #11
mlarue75
Posts: 1,199
[QUOTE=RyanP712;508212]That isn't my intention at all. I just happened across Leviticus 17:11 and I thought, "well, that doesn't make sense" so I asked an honest question expecting a sincere answer but everytime I asked a Jew about this they never came back to me with Scripture and I'm thinking, "if you want to communicate with me, you have to tell me what God says, not what you think." I mean the entire question came about based on the Law so I just wanted to discuss it further.[/QUOTE]OK, I understand.  First, I have not studied Leviticus so it is not a question I have the knowledge to answer, but several people who post regularly do.  Second, Jewish Torah study differs greatly from Protestant Bible study.  We look at a verse, at what's around it, ask a lot of questions, and then see what the rabbis said about it in Talmud and Midrash.  Very often there is more than one interpretation of a given text and these interpretations are all considered valid in our tradition.

I wish I could help you specifically but it is not my expertise.  Come over to the Discuss Judaism forum and you'll find people who can discuss it intelligently.
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6 years ago  ::  May 28, 2008 - 11:58AM #12
James613
Posts: 614
Lev. 17:11 doesn't say that you must have blood for atonement, but rather that blood is for temple ritual only. It is giving the rational for the mitzvah (commandment) given in verse 12. So again, atonement doesn't need blood, but blood is used exclusively for atonement.

If you want a text from Tanakh (the Bible) that provides a good overview of how a Jew obtains forgiveness then read this, Ezekiel 18:20-32.
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 29, 2010 - 12:20AM #13
logicfollows
Posts: 1
[/quote]


Shalom, really?


Leviticus, Hosea, and Psalm which would be the Jewish "hymn book" (yes i am a Christan) are all in the old texts.


After 70 A.D. when the Romans leveled Jerusalem and after so many alters were destroyed it was almost became a wide awareness to stop sacrifices.



And please re-read this again.



"For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, and in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings." --Hosea 6:6


For I delight in loyalty RATHER THAN SACRIFICE. It eventually got to the point where God said I hate your sacrifices, God is more meaning full than a dead calf, he rejoices in your good acts, your good soul, and your unconditional love for him.


I am a rationalist, and personally to take three separate scripts and compare and contrast them out of context is flat out idiotic, and unreasonable. These books were not written one after the other in the same year, so to compare them as if they were is illogical and completely strips the meaning of the text, you cannot place biblical text in your linear mentality. You are not a theologian and neither am I, in order to decipher ancient text, you need knowledge of the time, place and an education helps too.


 


Our faith defines us, not our domination. Either of you can choose to text search and prove and disprove your faith, but that is not why we are here. Debates? Really? Discuss but don't try to prove anything. You're not God, nor are you Christ you are just as lost in absolute truth than anyone else, we have our faith in God and are ability to love, and that's it.

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 21, 2010 - 8:27PM #14
Pam34
Posts: 2,650

We say: The Torah is not in Heaven. It was 'delivered' at Sinai, so to speak, and since that time, it has been in our hands, and in our authority to interpret it for the days in which we live. It is in Torah itself: if a matter is too hard for you, take it to the judges of your day....that is, to the sages and scholars of the law, and see what they have to say - and what they decide, that is what Torah says.


 


The First Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians and we lived without it for a century (or thereabouts). We CAN live without a temple, and without 'the sacrificial system'. God's forgiveness is not dependent on lambs or calves, or pigeons, flour or oil. God's forgiveness is not dependent on a standing Temple.


 


When the Second Temple was destroyed, our sages determined: the place of sacrifice has been taken by g'milut chasidim (basically, by 'deeds of lovingkindness'). In the absence of the temple sacrifices, we offer:


prayer services (service of the heart) and charitable activities (deeds of lovingkindness)


 


It may be useful to think of the Torah as the Constitution, and the sages/rabbis discussions and decisions as constitutional law and court decisions, stretching back roughly 2500 years.

Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 03, 2012 - 10:10PM #15
Dong
Posts: 26

May 15, 2008 -- 12:12AM, RyanP712 wrote:

I don't ask this to be insulting; this is true curiosity and I'm hoping someone can shed some light for me.

Blood must be shed to forgive sin. In the Old Testamant, this was done with animal sacrifices. In the New Testament, a one-time, perfect sacrifice was made that would provide eternal atonement.

But the thing I don't understand is, well, obviously no one does burnt offerings anymore so how can anyone who follows the Old Testament or, more importantly, the Torah justify their forgiveness?


I think what you are discussing is the Christian belief that Jesus died once and for all for the sins of all man kind and what I have to say is, this is not true.


People must make an effort to change, must do penance when it is necessary and sometimes they must also face punishment for their sins. 


Also, there are different interpretations of the bible, and many of these constitute non-literal interpretations. Entire schools of philosophy have been built on this principle, that the scriptures are symbolic and not necessarily to be interpreted literally.


I mean how many of us have 10 000 goats in our backyards to sacrifice when we do something wrong? 

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2012 - 1:40PM #16
Tuthpuller
Posts: 1

No one has answered the original question because either they can't or they know the answer, and are afraid or stuborn to admit a mistake.  Jesus said " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  Many people have misinterpretted this phrase. In order for anyone to be with God in Heaven, they must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Burnt offerings can only cover sins, not take them away. In Romans 6:23, it says, For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord. This is not rocket science. In Hebrews 11:6, it says, And without faith, it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and  that he rewards those who seek him.


Since the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, there have not been any animal sacrifices. How are those sins being covered? They are not, according to the Bible. Everyone must accept Jesus, if they want eternal spiritual life. 

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2012 - 4:44PM #17
Pam34
Posts: 2,650

Ok I'll bite:


from the Jewish perspective, you are working from a false position from the start. You stated that blood was necessary for forgiveness of sins.



but that is absolutely and categorically false. It is the result of an incorrect reading and non-Jewish interpretation of parts of Leviticus, and it is wrong.



What is necessary for forgiveness of sins is remorse. regret. repentance.



God forgives the contrite heart. Period.



There are, in fact,numerous examples of God's forgiveness in Torah and Tanakh as a whole, and in none of these cases was 'blood' (or sacrifice, or any other action) required or requested. The bringing of the 'sin' or 'guilt' offering to the temple was not a requirement of forgiveness from God - it never was. It was instead, a public statement of the desire of the individual to be returned to 'right standing' with the COMMUNITY, and it was a ritual of cleansing of the RESULTS of sin to return the individual to a state of 'purity'. It was not for forgiveness.



Read that again: sacrifice was NOT FOR FORGIVENESS. This is the source of much misunderstanding between Christians and Jews.



What must be done, what must happen, for God to forgive sins? A person must repent and return to God's path.

Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2012 - 8:45PM #18
ffb
Posts: 2,170

I'm sure this has been answered here and elsewhere repeated but I'll touch on some high points.


A small set of sins could be atoned for by a sacrifice (though not by the sacrifice ALONE -- atonement always required other elements). That sacrifice need NOT be animal in content -- a flour meal offering also worked. Thus, blood is not required.


Atonement always needed repentance, recompense, prayer, change in behavior etc.


We also have, via the text of Hosea, the idea that even the sacrifices which were effective have been replaced by prayer. We have many citations showing that god is less interested in sacrifices than in spiritual growth and repentance.


So I'm not sure what more you are looking for. The texts are pretty clear about all this.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 14, 2012 - 12:10PM #19
Pam34
Posts: 2,650

hmm ffb - no answer from the OP...I guess we didn't give the response he/she was looking for!



Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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