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Switch to Forum Live View The Bible in public schools
5 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2008 - 8:12PM #11
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
That is the only way it should be presented... in a secular light, as far as "the school" as a place for learning. Churches and homes are where religion, as personal belief and faith, should live, I think. I can not understand how a Conservative Christian, evangelical, fundamentalist would allow the religions indoctrination of son or daughter take place in a public school, where the teacher probably doesn't not have the identical beliefs (which is what these people demand) of the parent.

One problem is that presenting "The Bible" as the main text, and using it as "literature," is unworkable. Which bible? The supersessionist "Old" versus "New" Testament? If so, which one? Catholic or Protestant? Which translation and why? If one wants good literature from the days of King James, a better view would be Shakespeare, who reviolutionized the language... The KJV of the bible had a very limited vocabulary, comparably. On the other hand, can one really study a twentieth century version "as literature," when it contains so many fragments and variants in a language base, either Greek or Hebrew, which really hasn't much in common with English!?

Nah, the purpose of the "Sunday School" public school proponents haven't a halo to stand under on this issue!
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2008 - 5:42PM #12
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
[QUOTE=flitzerbiest;952605]MisterC,

Breathe, dude.  I actually agree with you about the motives of the BLP.  On the other hand, I think that removing study of the Bible from public school curricula is a bad idea.  BTW, my junior lit. class was also my first exposure to the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita. 

Eric[/QUOTE]

Can you cite examples of curriculum guides in which  the  "study of the Bible" was, per se, a part of the curriculum of public schools? I can't, and my education began almost sixty years ago and continued through the education of kids. The Bible wasn't "taught." On the other hand, the importance of religion is essential to the study of World and US history, as well as the study of any culture. No one has removed it. This has remained, with various slants depending on which (generally Xian) bias the teacher has. (One teacher I remember considered the stories in Genesis to be factual. I thought this really naive, but ya know, ya get whatcha pay for! )

I can show examples of where snippets of the Bible were in readers, the nineteenth century McGuffie's readers for example, but they went not because of any proscription against religion but because in the twentieth century the methods and materials changed dramatically, to say nothing of the students.

I would challenge anyone who is concerned that Christianity and other religions, other mythologies aren't a part of their state's curriculum to go to their state's DOE website.... Google the initials of the state and "DOE" and look into the standards, the curriculum. I think they will be surprised. It's just one more non-issue the Christian Conservatives (who don't believe in the promise of public education anyway) whine about!
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2008 - 6:35PM #13
flitzerbiest
Posts: 175
[QUOTE=MisterC;952956]Can you cite examples of curriculum guides in which  the  "study of the Bible" was, per se, a part of the curriculum of public schools? I can't, and my education began almost sixty years ago and continued through the education of kids. The Bible wasn't "taught." On the other hand, the importance of religion is essential to the study of World and US history, as well as the study of any culture. No one has removed it. This has remained, with various slants depending on which (generally Xian) bias the teacher has. (One teacher I remember considered the stories in Genesis to be factual. I thought this really naive, but ya know, ya get whatcha pay for! )

I can show examples of where snippets of the Bible were in readers, the nineteenth century McGuffie's readers for example, but they went not because of any proscription against religion but because in the twentieth century the methods and materials changed dramatically, to say nothing of the students.

I would challenge anyone who is concerned that Christianity and other religions, other mythologies aren't a part of their state's curriculum to go to their state's DOE website.... Google the initials of the state and "DOE" and look into the standards, the curriculum. I think they will be surprised. It's just one more non-issue the Christian Conservatives (who don't believe in the promise of public education anyway) whine about![/QUOTE]

No, I can't bring you the public school curriculum from my high school, now 24 years and 1500 miles distant.  On the other hand, every 11th grade lit class studied the various sacred texts, and each of them studied the same passages and even took the same test.  Trust me--it was in the curriculum.

At the time, I felt ripped off because my teacher was an atheist.  I have since come to realize that this was a privilege--the first time I ever saw what I considered to be sacred material was presented to me in a secular light.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 12, 2008 - 8:12PM #14
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
That is the only way it should be presented... in a secular light, as far as "the school" as a place for learning. Churches and homes are where religion, as personal belief and faith, should live, I think. I can not understand how a Conservative Christian, evangelical, fundamentalist would allow the religions indoctrination of son or daughter take place in a public school, where the teacher probably doesn't not have the identical beliefs (which is what these people demand) of the parent.

One problem is that presenting "The Bible" as the main text, and using it as "literature," is unworkable. Which bible? The supersessionist "Old" versus "New" Testament? If so, which one? Catholic or Protestant? Which translation and why? If one wants good literature from the days of King James, a better view would be Shakespeare, who reviolutionized the language... The KJV of the bible had a very limited vocabulary, comparably. On the other hand, can one really study a twentieth century version "as literature," when it contains so many fragments and variants in a language base, either Greek or Hebrew, which really hasn't much in common with English!?

Nah, the purpose of the "Sunday School" public school proponents haven't a halo to stand under on this issue!
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 13, 2008 - 5:12PM #15
andrewcyrus
Posts: 4,252
Hi MrC,

I prefer my child be taught the truth.

Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


It's easy to indoctrinate the children to favor a war monger. This has been goijng on for centuries in the schools. Manipulated by tyrants and evil powers in high places.

When the truth is imparted to the student via the right spirit, then discernment between right ans wrong is manifested. These are the right uses of the spiritual tools.

Unfortunately to many families are willing to hand their children off to a partial and hypocritical public system that brainwashes the children.   I pay taxes for this, but i also pay for my child to have bible studies in a christian school setting. It's good wisdom to have.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 13, 2008 - 5:57PM #16
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
Of course, public school as an option to most kids hasn't been around "for centuries," especially at more than an elementary level.   It's interesting that you believe something like a school has more influence on your children and the children of others than you or other parents. In my cultural world (white, middleclassed professional, married, grandkids), that just is not a problem. A caveat to that, however, is that generally when the kid turns sixteen, you become the dumbest person or parent  in the world. Not to worry. By the time the kid is twenty or twenty-one, you suddenly grow brain cells and become .once again a genius.  ;)  At least, that seems to be the norm. And, there is absolutely nothing wrong with one's child becoming influenced by new ideas, new people... It's healthy and normal. (I was reading some statistics about how children of evangelicals, for instance, tend to leave the church when they are out of their parents' houses, but I can't exactly remember where... Might have been at barna.org.) I'd rather grow with my kid than have my kid grow apart.

I'm interested in the "tyrants and evil powers" issue you have. Could you be more specific? I note that some people, as the caricature goes, see their former Catholic school nuns as "tyrants with rulers." Most modern public schools (at least the ones with which I am familiar) have advisory boards with a substantial number of parents making decisions. Parents are in the schools, in the classrooms regularly. Parents giving input on the very textbooks their children will use.

Christian school? In the 1960's and 1970's across the Deep South, thousands of those sprung up, just for parents to have an option other than a de-segregated school. No mixing of the races was the rationale. (There are some good Christian schools without that legacy, Catholic schools, Episcopal, and so forth, so the name "Christian" doesn't  necessarily relegate the school to the aforementioned "class.")

Brainwashing? Are you familiar with the steps involved in the term? If you are saying that the marginal four or five hours of instruction in a public school, in mathematics and Reading/English, with a bit more in science and social studies, a bit of PE and maybe a computer class brainwashes the children, you must not think much of the other nineteen or twenty hours, those the parent has control of the learning of the child. About all I can say is don't sell the kids short. If they are taught to do right and the parent is a good role model, they will do right.

But what does any of that have to do with biblical courses in public school? :(
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 13, 2008 - 11:42PM #17
andrewcyrus
Posts: 4,252
[QUOTE=MisterC;954645]Of course, public school as an option to most kids hasn't been around "for centuries," especially at more than an elementary level.   It's interesting that you believe something like a school has more influence on your children and the children of others than you or other parents. In my cultural world (white, middleclassed professional, married, grandkids), that just is not a problem. A caveat to that, however, is that generally when the kid turns sixteen, you become the dumbest person or parent  in the world. Not to worry. By the time the kid is twenty or twenty-one, you suddenly grow brain cells and become .once again a genius.  ;)  At least, that seems to be the norm. And, there is absolutely nothing wrong with one's child becoming influenced by new ideas, new people... It's healthy and normal. (I was reading some statistics about how children of evangelicals, for instance, tend to leave the church when they are out of their parents' houses, but I can't exactly remember where... Might have been at barna.org.) I'd rather grow with my kid than have my kid grow apart.

I'm interested in the "tyrants and evil powers" issue you have. Could you be more specific? I note that some people, as the caricature goes, see their former Catholic school nuns as "tyrants with rulers." Most modern public schools (at least the ones with which I am familiar) have advisory boards with a substantial number of parents making decisions. Parents are in the schools, in the classrooms regularly. Parents giving input on the very textbooks their children will use.

Christian school? In the 1960's and 1970's across the Deep South, thousands of those sprung up, just for parents to have an option other than a de-segregated school. No mixing of the races was the rationale. (There are some good Christian schools without that legacy, Catholic schools, Episcopal, and so forth, so the name "Christian" doesn't  necessarily relegate the school to the aforementioned "class.")

Brainwashing? Are you familiar with the steps involved in the term? If you are saying that the marginal four or five hours of instruction in a public school, in mathematics and Reading/English, with a bit more in science and social studies, a bit of PE and maybe a computer class brainwashes the children, you must not think much of the other nineteen or twenty hours, those the parent has control of the learning of the child. About all I can say is don't sell the kids short. If they are taught to do right and the parent is a good role model, they will do right.

But what does any of that have to do with biblical courses in public school? :([/QUOTE]


I'm interested in the "tyrants and evil powers" issue you have. Could you be more specific?
This video is about as specific as they come.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 4823827684

And, there is absolutely nothing wrong with one's child becoming influenced by new ideas, new people... It's healthy and normal

Watch the video we are all children the truth takes time.



"It's interesting that you believe something like a school has more influence on your children and the children of others than you or other parents"

I have to work 9-10 hours a day. I know that the teachers have more of my childs alert time than I do during the day. So yes I am not deluded into thinking that my influence is greater than the teachers that come into contact with my child.

"A caveat to that, however, is that generally when the kid turns sixteen, you become the dumbest person or parent  in the world."

I don't let my child/teen use those excuses for bad behaiviour despite what the "experts" may say.  If I have raised my child correctly then honoring the mother and father becomes a part of the good habits.


In regards to what passes in the public schools;
What is accepted as truth, such as the age of the earth some billions of years old, darwinism, and the lack of truth taught, the subversion of history, the dark ages and the inquistions, the mass slaughter of some 9 million native american indians... The nonexistent teachings of the fathers of the reformation. William Tyndale who translated the bible for the first time into english in 1527 etc. etc.

The children of America are programmed into the market of buying and borrrowing, fulfilling the needs and desires of the flesh over the desires of the spirit.

"In my cultural world (white, middleclassed professional, married, grandkids), that just is not a problem." Yes it is. The idea that the above can be acceptable to the culture of the white middle classed professional married with grandkids is like putting a sugary glaze on those rose colored glasses.


"And, there is absolutely nothing wrong with one's child becoming influenced by new ideas, new people... It's healthy and normal"


All though I think we may be diametrically formed in our inner programs I am certainly open to the spirit of truth.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 13, 2008 - 11:52PM #18
andrewcyrus
Posts: 4,252
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 

Won't happen in AMERICA..


The US  did drop that fire on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Happy searching.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 14, 2008 - 8:13AM #19
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
Gotcha. The scientific explanations of the last hunred fifty or two hundred years have produced this reaction to modernism. I will have to say, after being around schools for many, many years, I don't have to watch an anecdotal and probably, no, certainly skewed video about schools!

If your fight is with Darwin, we see evolution on a micro level going on each year, as bacteria get more and more anti-biotic resistent. I reckon the researchers who are looking for new ways to fight these new mutations are working against the "hand of god," eh? That is probably the best example of one of the Darwinian tenets, The "strong survive" and produce bacteria that resist the environment that has been manipulated to kill them. What would the biblical version be, of taught in school? God struck the people with those diseases dead, I suppose. There would be no bacteria, since it hadn't been discovered when the anachronistic texts were written.

We have the same thing with the fossil record. Yep, science can certainly tell that the earth is billions of years old. As a matter of fact, just lately at "Sima del Elefante" in Spain, parts of a Homo erectus have been found dating roughtly 1 and a quarter years old. It shows that there were humans in Europe half a million years before once thought, arriving from Africa. 

Yes, science is one of those things that renders a literalist view of the Bible threatened at the very least.  I can see why some people would knock public school, because it scares them. On the other hand, most scientists and researchers, and probably 95% of the teachers in public education are Christians, so they have found a way to understand "faith" and "science" compatible. They certainly wouldn't want faith taught as science or science taught as faith!  That would lead to a rather confused child, when the child realized that natural phenomena can be explained without the use of a god.
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2008 - 10:47PM #20
apologistrob
Posts: 5
I am a devout Christian and I dont want the Bible taught in public schools. Teach my children to read and write and add and subtract, let me worry about molding the content of their characture. But on the other hand, in this day in age, parents are getting younger and giving up their parental duties. It seems as though the meaning of parenting now-a-days is feeding, clothing, and houses, the rest is up to the children to figure out. Parents today put more responsability on the teachers to "raise"  their children. It saddens me.
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