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Switch to Forum Live View Art Dewey's Religio
6 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2009 - 11:59AM #1
RJMcElwain
Posts: 3,001
In the latest Fourth R, Art Dewey compares Paul’s view of Rome and the emergence of the new Christian counter-culture with the emergence of a possible new paradigm in the guise of the election of new leadership in Washington. I like the comparison and certainly hope that Arthur is right.

Does anyone else see a certain degree of historical repetition in the offing, or is Arthur too optimistic?:)
Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2009 - 8:07PM #2
GeneStecher
Posts: 556
[QUOTE=RJMcElwain;1038463]In the latest Fourth R, Art Dewey compares Paul’s view of Rome and the emergence of the new Christian counter-culture with the emergence of a possible new paradigm in the guise of the election of new leadership in Washington. I like the comparison and certainly hope that Arthur is right.

Does anyone else see a certain degree of historical repetition in the offing, or is Arthur too optimistic?:)[/QUOTE]

If closing Guantanimo, controlling lobbyists, outlawing torture, and making friends with the enemy before you get to court represents the "counter regime," then we have begun the journey.  Oh yeah, and loving your wife may count for something, as well.

Gene
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2009 - 3:32PM #3
RJMcElwain
Posts: 3,001

GeneStecher wrote:

If closing Guantanimo, controlling lobbyists, outlawing torture, and making friends with the enemy before you get to court represents the "counter regime," then we have begun the journey. Oh yeah, and loving your wife may count for something, as well.

Gene



I think it's going to be a very interesting 8 years.:)

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2009 - 11:24AM #4
MarkDavidNJ
Posts: 6

RJMcElwain wrote:

I think it's going to be a very interesting 8 years.:)


Hello all, this is my first post here and probably more an introduction than a critique of this topic. I have requested a free examination copy of the "Fourth R" in hopes of reviewing it for the possible commitment of subscribing. I hope I get it soon.

I know most people consider (wrongfully?) the Jesus Seminar as "liberal scholarship" but I would wonder if that is carried over to "liberal" political leanings. I am myself a libertarian constitutionalist very close to the center. Therefore I disagree with most of Obama's socialist tendancies but agree with some philosophical tendancies. Is it part of anyone's assumption here that most Jesus Seminar scholars are also leftist? Just wondering.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2009 - 11:37AM #5
RJMcElwain
Posts: 3,001

MarkDavidNJ wrote:

Hello all, this is my first post here and probably more an introduction than a critique of this topic. I have requested a free examination copy of the "Fourth R" in hopes of reviewing it for the possible commitment of subscribing. I hope I get it soon.

I know most people consider (wrongfully?) the Jesus Seminar as "liberal scholarship" but I would wonder if that is carried over to "liberal" political leanings. I am myself a libertarian constitutionalist very close to the center. Therefore I disagree with most of Obama's socialist tendancies but agree with some philosophical tendancies. Is it part of anyone's assumption here that most Jesus Seminar scholars are also leftist? Just wondering.


Hi Mark,

And welcome.

Like you, I'm a Libertarian. In fact, I'm a two time candidate for the Kansas House of Representatives. Like most Libertarians, I consider myself a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. However, within the broad spectrum of the Jesus Seminar membership, I think you'd find just about every political position imaginable. Far left to far right.:eek:

As for Obama, granted he ran as a liberal Democrat. However, what he has done so far, and based on the appointments he's been making, I suspect he plans on governing as a centrist.

By the way, I think you'll enjoy the Fourth R. It's a great read with a lot of excellent writers contributing to it.

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2009 - 11:24AM #6
MarkDavidNJ
Posts: 6

RJMcElwain wrote:

I think it's going to be a very interesting 8 years.:)


Hello all, this is my first post here and probably more an introduction than a critique of this topic. I have requested a free examination copy of the "Fourth R" in hopes of reviewing it for the possible commitment of subscribing. I hope I get it soon.

I know most people consider (wrongfully?) the Jesus Seminar as "liberal scholarship" but I would wonder if that is carried over to "liberal" political leanings. I am myself a libertarian constitutionalist very close to the center. Therefore I disagree with most of Obama's socialist tendancies but agree with some philosophical tendancies. Is it part of anyone's assumption here that most Jesus Seminar scholars are also leftist? Just wondering.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2009 - 11:37AM #7
RJMcElwain
Posts: 3,001

MarkDavidNJ wrote:

Hello all, this is my first post here and probably more an introduction than a critique of this topic. I have requested a free examination copy of the "Fourth R" in hopes of reviewing it for the possible commitment of subscribing. I hope I get it soon.

I know most people consider (wrongfully?) the Jesus Seminar as "liberal scholarship" but I would wonder if that is carried over to "liberal" political leanings. I am myself a libertarian constitutionalist very close to the center. Therefore I disagree with most of Obama's socialist tendancies but agree with some philosophical tendancies. Is it part of anyone's assumption here that most Jesus Seminar scholars are also leftist? Just wondering.


Hi Mark,

And welcome.

Like you, I'm a Libertarian. In fact, I'm a two time candidate for the Kansas House of Representatives. Like most Libertarians, I consider myself a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. However, within the broad spectrum of the Jesus Seminar membership, I think you'd find just about every political position imaginable. Far left to far right.:eek:

As for Obama, granted he ran as a liberal Democrat. However, what he has done so far, and based on the appointments he's been making, I suspect he plans on governing as a centrist.

By the way, I think you'll enjoy the Fourth R. It's a great read with a lot of excellent writers contributing to it.

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2009 - 2:06PM #8
wms13
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by MarkDavidNJ

>I know most people consider (wrongfully?) the Jesus Seminar as "liberal scholarship" but I would wonder if that is carried over to "liberal" political leanings.

Welcome Mark,

There really is no liberal scholarship and conservative scholarship. I have heard those terms for over 30 years but I can only find scholarship that is well done and scholarship that is poorly done. Seeking proof for one’s doctrinal position is not the same as looking for the best historical explanation for what happened some time in the past. I will also have to admit; it is not always easy to tease apart a given body of research to discern how well it has been accomplished.

When you say: “most people consider (wrongfully?) the Jesus Seminar as "liberal scholarship"”, you are stating the reality of what happens when scholarly research confronts a society filled with unexamined traditions.

Recently, I had a friend ask what I am doing in my retirement. I said I was involved with the Westar Institute, home of the Jesus Seminar. His response, “Well, I certainly don’t agree with what they do.” I was surprised he had even heard of the JS. I asked if he had read any of their research. No, he hadn’t. So what didn’t he agree with? I don’t know and he didn’t say.

Concerning liberal political leanings: After many conversations with Associates and Fellows, I can attest to Bob M’s statement about the broad spectrum of social philosophies and political positions represented by our membership. Bob Funk set up a very large tent that contains many varieties of folks.

I think you will like the Fourth R. Bob Miller does a wonderful job of bringing a variety of topics to its pages.

Mike Short
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2009 - 6:41PM #9
MarkDavidNJ
Posts: 6
Mike short,

Thank you for the welcome, I totally agree with you. The Jesus seminar works I have read so far are: "The five Gospels, The acts of Jesus, The complete Gospels, The Jesus seminar and it's critics and The Gospel of Jesus according to the Jesus Seminar." I also Like Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus". I have really been excited with research I didn't even know existed until this year.

For me it has been extremely frustrating to trudge through "Jesus Seminar debunkers'" works. It seems from my observation that anyone who writes a refutation against the Jesus Seminar hurls empty insults and blatantly takes advantage of the readers ignorance with a "trust me I'm a real scholar" attitude. It is incredibly insulting to be so immature in front of the public.

It is fascinating that you are working with the Westar institute. I was thinking of being an associate (not a fellow)... Do I need any college degrees? So far I only have an associate's degree undergrad.  Also, would you suggest any good scholarly books I can play catch up with? So far the books I mentioned are the only ones on the subject I've read.

Thanks
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 29, 2009 - 6:44PM #10
PeterKane
Posts: 63
And Welcome Again Mark:

You can get a view of previous 4R articles online on the Westar website.  Select periodicals to get 4R samples.  You can also read summaries of the Christian Origins and Acts Seminars meeting discussions.

Peter
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