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Switch to Forum Live View Questioning the Book of Mormon
6 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2008 - 7:21PM #1
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,914
This thread is for all questions and negitive thoughts:D
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 03, 2008 - 10:30AM #2
withwonderingawe
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I’m going to post this link to Meridian Magazine, it answers a couple of questions we often see brought up by the antis

http://www.ldsmag.com/bookofmormon/0802 … nding.html
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6 years ago  ::  May 04, 2008 - 7:04PM #3
RogWay
Posts: 17
So, What the Book of Mormon? Is it the Bible restated in a Mormon way?
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6 years ago  ::  May 04, 2008 - 7:04PM #4
RogWay
Posts: 17
So, What the Book of Mormon? Is it the Bible restated in a Mormon way?
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6 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 7:09PM #5
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,914
Is it the Bible restated in a Mormon way?


Yes and no. It is another witness to Christ. Jesus spoke of other sheep who would hear his voice, the people of the Book of Mormon are those sheep.

Time wise it starts about the time of the flood with a group coming to the Americans, more than likely in Meso America. These people are called the Jaredites their story last up until 400 bc when they destroy themselves. You’ll find their story at the back in the Book of Ether.

The next group, the family of Lehi, come around 600 bc and their story last up until 400 ad. At the death and resurrection of Christ he come to these people and shows them his resurrected body.

I feel the Book more clearly explains the why behind the atonement, I mean why a blood sacrifice. It does not in anyway contradict that Bible but helps to support it.
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6 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 7:12PM #6
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,914
We hear so much negative about the Book, I thought it would be good to look at what is to be found in common between the Book of Mormon peoples and what is found in Meso America.


In the Book of Helaman chapter 3 he tells us of a group of Nephites who leave “the land of Zarahemla” around 40 bc and go northward into a land which is called “desolate”. It is believed that Zarahemla is located somewhere along the “Narrow Neck of Land”. So these people went north from there.

Helaman gets very specific when describing the land and situations. So I’m going to take a close look at what he wrote.

1, they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.

So a land surrounded by water yet not an island.

2, they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.

3, “because of the greatness of the destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate….the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement”

The Nephites did not enter an empty land, there seems to be people in religion. There had to be someone to there to teach the Nephites to work with cement. This would be the Mayans and their history would have to have some unique parallels to the Book of Mormon story line.

4, the reason it was called desolate is “….into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land”. Helaman was saying that there was a great deforestation of the land.

5, “the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement”
So the Book of Mormon claims that American Indians built their homes of cements.


6, Instead of cutting more trees they let them grow. “they did send forth much by the way of shipping….and their shipping and their building of ships”

So now it is claiming that these Nephites had a whole shipping industry.
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6 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 7:15PM #7
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,914
So let’s take a look at some facts about the Mayan civilization.

1#, the region describes the land from the Yucatan Peninsula to the Pacific Ocean on the west. JS could have easily looked at a map for that one, accept he didn’t have one.

2# lots of river and lakes
In Guatemala alone there are 5 different major rivers and a number of lakes. There are also a large number of swamps. Do ya think he could find a map with that detail?


#3 this one is about the history of the Mayans and how it matches what the Book of Mormon says;

I am not saying that the Nephites are the Mayans but that they became trading partners and then moved northward from Zarahemla to lived among them.

So their history must parallel to some extent with the Mayans.

A, I found this in an article; THE ANCIENT MAYA A COMMERCIAL EMPIRE

“During the Classic (around 200 ad) and Post-Classic Periods, a strong foreign element in Maya trade markets prompted rapid economic expansion and development.”

From this we learn the Mayans suddenly had a good economy around 200 ad and there was trading with a foreign element.

This fits nicely into the Book of Mormon story. After the Lord appeared to them the Nephites have a period of peace for 200 years and during that time they became very rich.

B,
Tikal was a very large Mayan city which was occupied from around 400 bc until 900 ad. There was a gradual build up until they reached there “apogee during the Classic Period, ca. 200 AD …….There is also evidence that Tikal was later conquered by Teotihuacan in the 4th century A.D.” Then following the end of the Late Classic Period, there was a ‘hiatus’ of sorts, no new major monuments were built at Tikal and there is evidence that elite palaces were burned” (WIK)

This again follows with the Book of Mormon, the Nephites had their “apogee” around 200 ad and then fell into sin. They began warring with each other until 400 ad when all the Nephites were finally destroyed.

Mormon 5
“But it came to pass that whatsoever lands we had passed by, and the inhabitants thereof were not gathered in, were destroyed by the Lamanites, and their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire; and thus three hundred and seventy and nine years passed away.”

400 years is not much time to leave a foot print on the land especially when your enemy destroys everything, by burning your homes. This is why there is no sign saying ‘welcome to the Land of the Nephites.’

There was a real and sudden decline in Tikal's population and their King had been killed. The Nephite war would have been just a side line compared to the blood bath the Mayans inflicted on each other.


C, Population;
It also must be remembered that the Lamanites mention in this chapter were not the same descendants as the earlier Lamanites. Mormon and 4th Nephi have just lumped together all of those who are fighting against the Church of Christ under that label. They would have included Nephites, Lamanites, left over Jaredites, Mayans from the different city states and many other peoples from the area.

Even though Mormon has an army of more than 210,000 strong he says

“ for so great were their numbers that they did tread the people of the Nephites under their feet.”

The Mayan population in that area was well over a million. Joseph would not have had any idea that there were that many people living in Central America.

4# no trees;

I found this;
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/Maya/

“Pollen samples collected from columns of soil that archeologists have excavated across the region provide evidence of widespread deforestation approximately…. …Another piece of evidence,” explained Sever, “is the thickness of the floor stones in the Mayan ruins. They would have needed about 20 trees [to build a fire large and hot enough] to make a plaster floor stone that is about one square meter. In the earliest ruins, these stones were a foot or more thick, but they progressively got thinner. The most recently built ones were only a few inches thick.”

Helaman tells us that by 40 bc there was already a major deforestation but that they decided not to cut any more tree but to let them grow. (first environmentalist) So for about 200 to 400 years the trees were allowed to flourish. But after the “hiatus” they once more began cutting down the trees.

How in the world could Joseph had known about a deforestation in Guatemala????
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6 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 7:18PM #8
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,914
5# cement buildings

“All stone for Maya structures appears to have been taken from local quarries. They most often utilized limestone, which remained pliable enough to be worked with stone tools while being quarried, and only hardened once removed from its bed. In addition to the structural use of limestone, much of their mortar consisted of crushed, burnt, and mixed limestone that mimicked the properties of cement and was used just as widely for stucco finishing as it was for mortar.”

http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/maya.htm

Joseph knew they used cement?? No Indian he ever met built a house out of cement!


6# trading and shipping
A,
Again from ‘The Ancient Maya a Commercial Empire
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/dconrad/dcmayatrade.html
In this article they discuss how vast the trading was in the Mayan culture and that trading included a “maritime trade” or “ships” as Helaman in the Book of Mormon said. How could Joseph know that??

B,
“The role of elites in the Ancient Maya civilization is examined today. Experts' views are changing, as new evidence is uncovered concerning commerce's function in politics. The majority of experts believe the trade of luxury goods empowered elites with greater prestige and status during the Classic Period. (200 ad)…Luxury items included jade, quetzal feathers, cacao, seashells, elaborate polychrome pottery and embroidered cloth, chert, amber, and turquoise. Because long-distance trade was extremely labor intensive and costly, fine goods were primarily exchanged….Embroidered cloth was particularly important in signifying status,”

In the Book of Mormon 4th Nephi describe the wealth of the Nephites;

“the people had multiplied, insomuch that they were spread upon all the face of the land, and that they had become exceedingly rich,…who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them. And they began to be divided into classes…”

So once again Joseph hit that nail on the head, costly apparel marking a persons status and a society broken up into classes.


C, Note he didn’t say diamonds or rubies but pearls. The Mayans didn’t have diamonds and rubies but they sure had a lot of pearls

“King Hasaw Chank'awil's tomb was found within a vaulted chamber inside. His corpse was wearing 180 items of jade and surrounded in pearls, alabaster…”

http://www.angelfire.com/ns2/mayantemples/

Mmmm how did Joseph know that?

Now a Number 7
“And they did also march forward against the city Teancum, and did drive the inhabitants forth out of her, and did take many prisoners both women and children, and did offer them up as sacrifices unto their idol gods. 4 Nephi

Mayans often sacrifice children to their gods, it was a brutal way to died.

Mormon 9 the Nephites turn around and do the same thing raping women and the
“…..they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts, because of the hardness of their hearts; and they do it for a token of bravery. “


This is something the Aztecs did as a ritual cannibalism “The warrior would thus ascend one step in the hierarchy of the Aztec social classes, a system that rewarded successful warriors”

I suppose Joseph could have thought that up but…
Wise men still seek him.
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6 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 7:09PM #9
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,914
Is it the Bible restated in a Mormon way?


Yes and no. It is another witness to Christ. Jesus spoke of other sheep who would hear his voice, the people of the Book of Mormon are those sheep.

Time wise it starts about the time of the flood with a group coming to the Americans, more than likely in Meso America. These people are called the Jaredites their story last up until 400 bc when they destroy themselves. You’ll find their story at the back in the Book of Ether.

The next group, the family of Lehi, come around 600 bc and their story last up until 400 ad. At the death and resurrection of Christ he come to these people and shows them his resurrected body.

I feel the Book more clearly explains the why behind the atonement, I mean why a blood sacrifice. It does not in anyway contradict that Bible but helps to support it.
Wise men still seek him.
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 7:12PM #10
withwonderingawe
Posts: 4,914
We hear so much negative about the Book, I thought it would be good to look at what is to be found in common between the Book of Mormon peoples and what is found in Meso America.


In the Book of Helaman chapter 3 he tells us of a group of Nephites who leave “the land of Zarahemla” around 40 bc and go northward into a land which is called “desolate”. It is believed that Zarahemla is located somewhere along the “Narrow Neck of Land”. So these people went north from there.

Helaman gets very specific when describing the land and situations. So I’m going to take a close look at what he wrote.

1, they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.

So a land surrounded by water yet not an island.

2, they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.

3, “because of the greatness of the destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate….the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement”

The Nephites did not enter an empty land, there seems to be people in religion. There had to be someone to there to teach the Nephites to work with cement. This would be the Mayans and their history would have to have some unique parallels to the Book of Mormon story line.

4, the reason it was called desolate is “….into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land”. Helaman was saying that there was a great deforestation of the land.

5, “the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement”
So the Book of Mormon claims that American Indians built their homes of cements.


6, Instead of cutting more trees they let them grow. “they did send forth much by the way of shipping….and their shipping and their building of ships”

So now it is claiming that these Nephites had a whole shipping industry.
Wise men still seek him.
Quick Reply
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