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Switch to Forum Live View Why would John and Jesus give baptisms ?
5 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2009 - 4:34PM #1
Rod01
Posts: 15

Appenrently your question, puzzles many since here has been no responses on it.  It is , actually well thought out by you.  I can only state what Scriptures state--no speculation on my part!


Jesus commanded baptism:  "'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ....'" (Matthew 28:19)


Baptism is how Jesus makes disciples.  Jesus had plenty of "followers" in his ministry & people who were curious about Him.  But Jesus wanted disciples instead.  That is His Sacred mission to the Church as He ascended.


John the Baptist had a role as the forerunner of Christ.  He is the announcer.  Baptisms went on in John's time, namely from those non-Jewish adults who now wanted to become Jews or to those Jews who had ignored the Torah.  Adult circumscion had no practicality whatsoever!  John never wanted disciples.  John had his his "admireres" but he came to announce the coming of the Lord.


Rod01

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2009 - 7:05PM #2
he-man
Posts: 3,869

Oct 14, 2009 -- 4:34PM, Rod01 wrote:


Appenrently your question, puzzles many since here has been no responses on it.  It is , actually well thought out by you.  I can only state what Scriptures state--no speculation on my part!


Jesus commanded baptism:  "'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ....'" (Matthew 28:19)


Baptism is how Jesus makes disciples.  Jesus had plenty of "followers" in his ministry & people who were curious about Him.  But Jesus wanted disciples instead.  That is His Sacred mission to the Church as He ascended.


John the Baptist had a role as the forerunner of Christ.  He is the announcer.  Baptisms went on in John's time, namely from those non-Jewish adults who now wanted to become Jews or to those Jews who had ignored the Torah.  Adult circumscion had no practicality whatsoever!  John never wanted disciples.  John had his his "admireres" but he came to announce the coming of the Lord. Rod01


Good thoughts, however you need more training.


Mt 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all Gentiles, christening them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
<907> βαπτίζω christen to educate, train


Mt 3:11 I, indeed, to turn you about, dip in water,––but he, coming after me, is mightier than me, of whom, I am not able to carry the sandals, he, will christen you, in the fire of the Holy Spirit:

Mr 1:7 And proclaimed, saying, “Behind me comes the mightier of me, of whom, I am not sufficient to stoop down to unloosen the strap of the sandals. 
8 I have dipped you in water, but he will christen you in the Holy Spirit.”

1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2009 - 8:22PM #3
Rod01
Posts: 15

Dear he-man:


I am responding to statement where you conclude that I need "more training."  Apparently your "expertise" as mentioned in your journel is suffiient!


Baptirm--as you correctly noted form the Greek BAPTISMOS--is how one is called into discipleship.  "Christening" is nowhere mentuioned at all!  You might "Christien" some boat or even a horse, but the term is not found anywhere in Scripture.


Baptism is radical.  "Christening" is merely ceremonial--at best--and nothing more than that and another wide-spread example of cheapening His very Grace.!


Rod01

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2009 - 11:33AM #4
he-man
Posts: 3,869

Oct 14, 2009 -- 7:05PM, he-man wrote:

Good thoughts, however you need more training.


Mt 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all Gentiles, christening them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
<907> βαπτίζω christen to educate, train


Mt 3:11 I, indeed, to turn you about, dip in water,––but he, coming after me, is mightier than me, of whom, I am not able to carry the sandals, he, will christen you, in the fire of the Holy Spirit:

Mr 1:7 And proclaimed, saying, “Behind me comes the mightier of me, of whom, I am not sufficient to stoop down to unloosen the strap of the sandals. 


8 I have dipped you in water, but he will christen you in the Holy Spirit.”



Oct 14, 2009 -- 8:22PM, Rod01 wrote:

Dear he-man:I am responding to statement where you conclude that I need "more training."  Apparently your "expertise" as mentioned in your journel is suffiient!


Baptirm--as you correctly noted form the Greek BAPTISMOS--is how one is called into discipleship.  "Christening" is nowhere mentuioned at all!  You might "Christien" some boat or even a horse, but the term is not found anywhere in Scripture.


Baptism is radical.  "Christening" is merely ceremonial--at best--and nothing more than that and another wide-spread example of cheapening His very Grace.! Rod01


Think again, there are 77 uses of the word in the NT.


<907> βαπτίζω= christen to educate, train


βαπτίζω    verb: 1st person present active indicative singular    3
βαπτίζων    verb: present active participle nominative singular masculine    7


MT 3:11 εγω μεν υμας βαπτίζω
MR 1:4 εγένετο Ιωάννης ο βαπτίζων
MR 6:14  Ιωάννης ο βαπτίζων
LU 3:16 εγω μεν υδατι βαπτίζω
JOH 1:26 εγω βαπτίζω εν υδατι


Ephesians 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,


The believer's sins are metaphorically purged away in the rite. The rite is a ceremonial ablution, by God's grace  A ceremony, trial, or experience by which one is initiated, purified, or given a name by christen to educate, train.


The Anabaptists rejected infant baptism, advocating believers' education, a response of faith by the individual to the gospel.
That Peter conceived of Christian baptism as a sign of judicial ordeal is indicated by his likening it to the archetypal water ordeal, the Noahic deluge ( I Pet. 3:20-22 ). Peter meant that the flood waters saved Noah by delivering him from the evil of man ( cf. II Pet. 2:5 , 7)


It might also be observed that the extrication of the righteous from their persecution by the ungodly is characteristic of redemptive judgments and that the oppressive violence practised by the pre-diluvian kings figures prominently in the introduction to the flood record
Also. Acts 2:40 f. is better understood as a call to escape from that crooked generation regarded as the target of threatening divine wrath. Note the similarities to the terminology and message of John the Baptist ( cf. Lk. 3:5 ff. ) in verse 2 : (they) were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.


The passage through the Red Sea had the character of a judicial ordeal by which Israel was vindicated and Egypt doomed. It was an ordeal by water and by fire, the two elemental ordeal powers.
By his apostle he warns the Gentiles who are grafted into the tree of the covenant that just as Israelite branches had been broken off for their unbelief, they too, if they failed to stand fast through faith, would not be spared.
Rom. 11:17,21 ; cf.  Matt. 8:12 ; John 15:1,8 ; Heb. 6:4 ff.


In confirmation of this conclusion we may recall that John the Baptist analyzed the work of the coming One as a instruction in judgment by the Holy Spirit and fire.


Pentecost was thus a transition in Spirit and fire
Conclusions: Christian
christening is a sign of the eschatological ordeal in which the Lord of the covenant brings his servants to account  like regeneration, sanctification, incorporation by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, or protective sealing against the day of wrath.


Now if the covenant is first and last a declaration of God's lordship, then the christening sign of entrance into it will before all other things be a sign of coming under the jurisdiction of the covenant and particularly under the covenantal dominion of the Lord. Christian christening is thus the New Covenant sign of consecration or discipleship of learning to teach.


For there christening of the Gentiles takes its place alongside teaching them to obey Christ's commandments in specification of the charge to disciple them to him who has been given all authority in heaven and earth and making disciples in John 4:1 .


And if the immediate function of christening in covenant administration is to serve as the ritual of an oath of discipleship, we have in that another indication that christening is a symbolic portrayal of the judgment of the covenant.


For, as we have seen, covenant oath rituals were enactments of the sanctions invoked in the oath. Indeed from these historic antecedents we may infer that christening as an oath ritual symbolizes in particular the curse sanction, the death judgment threatened in the covenant


For on no view of the meaning of βαπτίζω  is any thought of emergence involved. In fact, the metaphorical meaning that it develops is that of perishing.
As for the meaning of βαπτίζω, its semantic development evidently proceeded from the primary idea of christen to educate, train

1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2009 - 3:29PM #5
Rod01
Posts: 15

Dear He-man:


You are still perpetuating a very cheap grace in contrast to His Costly Grace which He stated and always gives:


"..."'If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.'" (Matthew 16:24)


The notion of "christening" is Grace marked down to a bargain basement commodity.  Even worse, you are patheically attempting to justify yourself!  Self-justification is as old as Adam & Eve.


You can squabble all you want, but I have no further need to quarrel with you.


Rod01

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 15, 2009 - 4:48PM #6
he-man
Posts: 3,869

Oct 15, 2009 -- 11:33AM, he-man wrote:


there are 77 uses of the word βαπτίζω in the NT.


<907> βαπτίζω= christen to educate, train


βαπτίζω    verb: 1st person present active indicative singular    3
βαπτίζων    verb: present active participle nominative singular masculine    7


MT 3:11 εγω μεν υμας βαπτίζω
MR 1:4 εγένετο Ιωάννης ο βαπτίζων
MR 6:14  Ιωάννης ο βαπτίζων
LU 3:16 εγω μεν υδατι βαπτίζω
JOH 1:26 εγω βαπτίζω εν υδατι


Ephesians 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,


The believer's sins are metaphorically purged away in the rite. The rite is a ceremonial ablution, by God's grace  A ceremony, trial, or experience by which one is initiated, purified, or given a name by christen to educate, train.


The Anabaptists rejected infant baptism, advocating believers' education, a response of faith by the individual to the gospel.
That Peter conceived of Christian baptism as a sign of judicial ordeal is indicated by his likening it to the archetypal water ordeal, the Noahic deluge ( I Pet. 3:20-22 ). Peter meant that the flood waters saved Noah by delivering him from the evil of man ( cf. II Pet. 2:5 , 7)


It might also be observed that the extrication of the righteous from their persecution by the ungodly is characteristic of redemptive judgments and that the oppressive violence practised by the pre-diluvian kings figures prominently in the introduction to the flood record
Also. Acts 2:40 f. is better understood as a call to escape from that crooked generation regarded as the target of threatening divine wrath. Note the similarities to the terminology and message of John the Baptist ( cf. Lk. 3:5 ff. ) in verse 2 : (they) were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.


The passage through the Red Sea had the character of a judicial ordeal by which Israel was vindicated and Egypt doomed. It was an ordeal by water and by fire, the two elemental ordeal powers.
By his apostle he warns the Gentiles who are grafted into the tree of the covenant that just as Israelite branches had been broken off for their unbelief, they too, if they failed to stand fast through faith, would not be spared.
Rom. 11:17,21 ; cf.  Matt. 8:12 ; John 15:1,8 ; Heb. 6:4 ff.


In confirmation of this conclusion we may recall that John the Baptist analyzed the work of the coming One as a instruction in judgment by the Holy Spirit and fire.


Pentecost was thus a transition in Spirit and fire
Conclusions: Christian
christening is a sign of the eschatological ordeal in which the Lord of the covenant brings his servants to account  like regeneration, sanctification, incorporation by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, or protective sealing against the day of wrath.


Now if the covenant is first and last a declaration of God's lordship, then the christening sign of entrance into it will before all other things be a sign of coming under the jurisdiction of the covenant and particularly under the covenantal dominion of the Lord. Christian christening is thus the New Covenant sign of consecration or discipleship of learning to teach.


For there christening of the Gentiles takes its place alongside teaching them to obey Christ's commandments in specification of the charge to disciple them to him who has been given all authority in heaven and earth and making disciples in John 4:1 .


And if the immediate function of christening in covenant administration is to serve as the ritual of an oath of discipleship, we have in that another indication that christening is a symbolic portrayal of the judgment of the covenant.


For, as we have seen, covenant oath rituals were enactments of the sanctions invoked in the oath. Indeed from these historic antecedents we may infer that christening as an oath ritual symbolizes in particular the curse sanction, the death judgment threatened in the covenant


For on no view of the meaning of βαπτίζω  is any thought of emergence involved. In fact, the metaphorical meaning that it develops is that of perishing.
As for the meaning of βαπτίζω, its semantic development evidently proceeded from the primary idea of christen to educate, train



Oct 15, 2009 -- 3:29PM, Rod01 wrote:

Dear He-man:You are still perpetuating a very cheap grace in contrast to His Costly Grace which He stated and always gives:"..."'If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.'" (Matthew 16:24)


The notion of "christening" is Grace marked down to a bargain basement commodity.  Even worse, you are patheically attempting to justify yourself!  Self-justification is as old as Adam & Eve.You can squabble all you want, but I have no further need to quarrel with you. Rod01


  I graciously accept you renouncing yourself, just as Jesus said. Mt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone desires to come behind me, let him take away his stake and renounce himself daily and pursue me."


Just click on this  to see the translation:


translate.reference.com/translate?query=...


As for the meaning of βαπτίζω, its semantic development evidently proceeded from the primary idea of christen to educate, train
Jn 4:2  Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples.



1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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