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6 years ago  ::  Jul 31, 2008 - 7:19AM #1
matica
Posts: 3,065
How can the bible be inspired when so many scribal variants are found throughout the manuscripts we have and there being many different interpretations of these manuscripts?

If Gods message was so simple, then shouldn't there be one all inclusive source of evidence of his inspiration, instead of thousands?

Matt
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 21, 2008 - 3:45PM #2
eagle_eye222001
Posts: 104
Actually the Bible is not as changed as you think it is.  It is essentially the same thing as it was 1700 years ago.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2008 - 11:56AM #3
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
[QUOTE=matica;659530]How can the bible be inspired when so many scribal variants are found throughout the manuscripts we have and there being many different interpretations of these manuscripts?

If Gods message was so simple, then shouldn't there be one all inclusive source of evidence of his inspiration, instead of thousands?

Matt[/QUOTE]

All writings are inspired to some extent or another. To say one is inspired by god is a bit pretentious. The books in the bible were written by humans over a prolonged time. They were revised and at some point the canons (Christian and Jewish) were more or less fixed into place. But, they are the products of humankind, inspired by humans, for  different reasons.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2008 - 2:32PM #4
he-man
Posts: 3,869
[QUOTE=matica;659530]How can the bible be inspired when so many scribal variants are found throughout the manuscripts we have and there being many different interpretations of these manuscripts?

If Gods message was so simple, then shouldn't there be one all inclusive source of evidence of his inspiration, instead of thousands?

Matt[/QUOTE]
It is still intact but it takes more to get it out because people took for granted many things they were falsely taught.
You could have searched the Greek MSS many years ago and came up with the meanings of words like "crew" with is very simply, a group of people working together.

Divry's Pocket Dictionary clearly defines tthe word as πληρωμα/ομας listed by Strong as 4138. Checking verse Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the crew (group of people working together) of the deity bodily.

However, many were incorrectly presupposing that it had the same meaning as Strong's 4134, which was πληρης full because they were led to believe that was saying Christ was God.

All it really means is that we are all working together in the Church (Body) of Christ.

Whereas, if they had bothered to read the next verse it would have explained exactly what it meant:
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all governments and rulers.

Even reading verse 8 it is difficult to see how anyone could read vers 9 differently. 8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

It is saying that we are not to be fooled by whatever the general population thinks according to what they have learned in Theology schools but to only listen to what the Bible will reveal to you IF you are willing to accept Christ.

FIRST you must SEEK, then and only then, will you FIND!
1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 28, 2008 - 3:20PM #5
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187
[QUOTE=matica;659530]How can the bible be inspired when so many scribal variants are found throughout the manuscripts we have and there being many different interpretations of these manuscripts?

If Gods message was so simple, then shouldn't there be one all inclusive source of evidence of his inspiration, instead of thousands?

Matt[/QUOTE]

Matt - Although there are some serious errors in some translations, good translations have removed these errors.

The most serious and common error is the substitution of "Lord" (Hebrew adon, adonay) for the Divine Name (Hebrew YHWH/JHVH) - it was in the original Hebrew nearly 7,000 times.   Some translations remove it entirely, some have it a few times (e.g. AV Psalms 83:18), and some have restored it completely (AS,Je,NW, etc.).

The main message of the Bible is in all translations and most variants are just different ways of saying the same thing.

For example:

Matthew 5:44 - Love your enemies (AV, etc.).

(Mark 12:28-34) . . .Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?” 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you well said in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other than He’; 33 and this loving him with one’s whole heart and with one’s whole understanding and with one’s whole strength and this loving one’s neighbor as oneself is worth far more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 At this Jesus, discerning he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” . . .

(Deuteronomy 6:4-5) 4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. 5 And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.

(Leviticus 19:18) “‘You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.

(Romans 13:8-10) . . .Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law. 9 For the [law code], “You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.

The more serious problem is not translations, but actually following Bible teachings.

History shows that the earliest Christians did not go to war and were non-violent.  However, gradually violence entered into the Church until during much of history Christendom has been more violent than any other group/religion.   Consider the Crusades and inquisitions and more recently the Spanish Civil War, WWI and WWII.

This was not because they removed "love your enemies"  from the Bible, but rather that they chose not to follow what Jesus taught.

This is not a matter of interpretation either - even a child knows that one is not loving his enemies if he goes to war against them or seeks to kill them by bombs, etc.

BTW - The Bible is in more languages than any other book - this is appropriate as our Creator wants all mankind to be able to read it and by doing so get to know Jehovah, and grow in love for Jehovah and one's fellow man.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 28, 2008 - 3:48PM #6
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
[QUOTE=matica;659530]How can the bible be inspired when so many scribal variants are found throughout the manuscripts we have and there being many different interpretations of these manuscripts?

If Gods message was so simple, then shouldn't there be one all inclusive source of evidence of his inspiration, instead of thousands?

Matt[/QUOTE]

"inspired." Actually, this notion of "inspired by god" is probably not original. It basically makes the bible an idol. (It sounds like something Protestant, actually.)

Most writings are "inspired." Stan Lee had far more "inspiration" when he created the first cartoon superhero with all too human foibles (Spiderman). Now, that was true inspiration!
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2008 - 8:34AM #7
he-man
Posts: 3,869
[QUOTE=MisterC;790722]"inspired." Actually, this notion of "inspired by god" is probably not original. It basically makes the bible an idol. (It sounds like something Protestant, actually.)

Most writings are "inspired." Stan Lee had far more "inspiration" when he created the first cartoon superhero with all too human foibles (Spiderman). Now, that was true inspiration![/QUOTE]

Isa 40:25  To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

When you grow up to be a big boy then you can learn what it means.
1Ch 25:5  All these were the sons of Heman the king’s seer (chozeh= to see) in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2008 - 12:50PM #8
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
[QUOTE=he-man;791925]Isa 40:25  To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

When you grow up to be a big boy then you can learn what it means.[/QUOTE]

No substance in that comment.  Typical of one who has nothing to say.

One really, however, can't compare this "holy one" of the Bible  to any modern day heroes, since this holy one destroys more than he builds, depending more on Israel's blind obedience than any positive traits. That would be the holy one who got rid of Saul because Saul didn't obey him and "spare" anyone, even  "men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses." The "Holy One of Infanticide" got rather perturbed, since Saul didn't do enough killing for him... "Two whom then will you liken me, or shall I be equal?" askes the unholy one. Maybe Adolf Hitler, perhaps Stalin... but certainly that holy one is no Spidernan!!!
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 29, 2008 - 3:16PM #9
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
I just realized that He-Man was not only an action figure and hero of movies, but was a DC comic hero. I'm sure that was where the "rub" is. DC comics didn't really join into the definition of the "modern hero" until late, preferring their characters to be created in the image of "all good" gods, sort of a Jesus-type figure. As I was saying earlier, Stan Lee, with his characters (I used Superman as an example, but we have the flawed personalities of others such as Hulk, X-Men, and others as examples) introduced to the comic "superhero" genre this notion of the "flawed hero" we see in, for instance, John Updike and John Cheever's protagonists. (It is like making the Jesus of the gospels back into a human, as scholarship of the last three hundred years has done, after the Church formed him into a demi-god, or a convoluted one-third whole of a three headed god.)

So, I was using the example of Spiderman over the DC characters like Superman, the early Batman, and He-Man, before DC probably had to find some human traits for their super-human people. I was in no way besmirching the cartoon character screen name of one of the respondents.

Now that this is out of the way, one can find inspired writing in the bible without saying that it, in any way is "inspired by God" or "the word of God." Those are both theological viewpoints. The first can be valid or invalid, depending on one's belief or lack of belief. The second is the more interesting statement in that it deals with the personification of an anthopomorphic concept that literalists have to see in this light in order for their religion to have purpose. As best I can see, it has something to do with the Johanine notion that the logos or word was god and became incarnate in Jesus. (Sort of reminds one of the tower of Babel, now, doesn't it!) Anyway, to cast this pre-modern vision of god into a book written by people (mainly men, as far as anyone knows) and to look at it as "inspired" in some way that is different that any "inspiration" strikes me as illogical (which is one long pun, since logos is the root of logic and means both "word" and "reason!!!")

As far as "inspired by God," wouldn't that also refer to other great books of both antiquity and modern times? (Rhetorical question.)  I can think of several books by Martin Luther King Jr that rank above most of the books in the bible as being inspired. In the secular world,  practically anything Mark Twain wrote can be placed above most of the Bible in terms of inspiration. A case in point: "Huckleberry Finn" has the  blistering critique of slavery as a theme that permeates the book whereas the Bible condones slavery. Which of those two, using a modern lens (hopefully, a modern god) is more inspired by God? Would it be the writing of Twain, who showed how horrible slavery was to the individual and to families, or would it be the author of Ephesians six, who glibly stated, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ..." ???
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6 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2008 - 6:12PM #10
iamisrael
Posts: 3
MisterC, I have to say that your reasoning is very insightful. I hadn't before considered - at least in these terms and to this level - that inspiration can mean two very different things. I believe I agree with you that inspiration from God is not something that happend solely to the books of the Old and New Testaments, but can and does occur in very meaningful ways down through the ages. I find Socrates and his search for Truth and 'the God' very much inspired, though it seems as though religion has little respect for any spirituality imparted by this man.

Anyway, thanks for the insight - it's given me something to ponder ; )
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