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9 years ago  ::  Jul 27, 2008 - 12:08AM #1
1SonofGod
Posts: 171
please help me to understand how the book or morons can be God's word when there is clearly incorrect statement made in it?  MORMONISM vs. CHRISTIANITY

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MORMON THEOLOGY CHRISTIAN RESPONSE
The Church has 4 Standard Works that are authoritative:  The Bible (in so far as it is translated correctly), the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.  Speeches and writings of the current president of the church are also authoritative.  The Bible is far below the other standard Works because it is full of errors (wherever it disagrees with Mormon doctrine).                                                                                                 

The only authoritative scriptures given by God are the 39 books of the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible.  God promised to preserve his word and to suggest that the Bible was mistranslated and corrupted would be to call God a liar.  If God were to give additional revelations they would be consistent with any prior revelations thus eliminating Mormon writings, since they stand in direct opposition to the divine revelation that has already been given in the Bible.

One God (according to the moroms)

There are many Gods. Brigham Young-Journal of Discourses 7:333 "How many Gods there are, I do not know.  But there never was a time when there were not Gods.  There is only one God.  (Dt 6:4; 33:26-27; Isa 43:10; 45:5; 46:9; 1Ti 2:5)

The Nature of God
God the Father is an exalted man (a man who has progressed to godhood) with a body of flesh and bones. 
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1973 ed., p. 346 - "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man...I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in a form-like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man."

D & C 130:22  "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also."
 
The Bible is most explicit in stating that God is not a man (Nu 23:19; 1Sa 15:29; Hos 11:9).  God the Father, the eternal God is Spirit (Isa 55:8-9; 6:1-5; 57:15; Pss 90:2; 113:5-6; 123:1; Jn 4:24: 8:23)  Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones (Lk 24:39)

  According to the moroms
God the Father became a God after learning truth, aggressively pursuing godhood, and being obedient to the laws of the gospel.  God the Father has always existed as such (Dt 33:27; Isa 43:10; 44:6; 45:5, 21; 46:9; Mal 3:6; 1Co 8:4; 1Ti 2:5; Rev 1:8; 21:6; 22:13).   


Bible say..
As Psalms 90:2 and 93:2 state, God has been God "from eternity to eternity."

book of morons....
God the Father has a wife, through whom he procreates spirit children.
"Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother.  An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p. 516)
 
Bible:
The Godhead determined to make man in their image, not to procreate spirit children (Ge 1:26).  Nowhere does Scripture even hint at the existence of an Eternal Mother.

  Book of Moroms
God is not a uniquely eternal being.  All spirit is self-existent matter and is eternal (without beginning or end).  Such "matter (called intelligences) sometimes becomes organized into a spirit being through birth to celestial parents.  Then that spirit is born through human parents on earth.  Like all people, God took this course and eventually reached Godhood.
God would stop being God if intelligences stopped supporting him as God.
(D&C 93:29, 33; Abraham 3:18-23; Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed. p. 751)

Bible...
  God is not God unless He is all-powerful, all knowing, absolutely in charge.  If God exists only as God because of support given from other intelligent forms, He is not God at all (Isa 44:6; Ro 3:4; Rev 1:8; 21:6; 22:13)
God is unchangingly omnipotent, and no purpose of His can be thwarted.  He is not overruled by anyone (Ge 17:1; Job 36:22-23; 42:2; Isa 14:26-27; 40:13-14; Jer 32:27; Mt 19:26; Lk 1:37; Ac 17:24-25; Rev 19:6)

Man and Sin
Man was also in the beginning with God.  Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be"  (D&C 93:29)
Life, intelligence, mind, the 'light of truth' , or whatever name one gives to the center of the personality of man, is an uncreated, eternally existent, indestructible entity...In the first stage, man was an eternally existent being termed an intelligence...The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world....eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies...numerous sons and daughters were begotten and born of heavenly parents into that eternal family in the spirit world" (The Gospel Through the ages, pp.126-127)

Bible...
Man is a finite being, not an eternal one.  The first man Adam was created at a specific point in time (Ge 1:26-27; 2:7; 1Co 15:45-49).  Man did not exist in the beginning when God was creating the universe, for if he had, God's question to Job would have made no sense (Job 38:4).  Man was created lower than the angels, so that David wondered why God is even mindful of him (Ps 8:3-5; 144:3).  Not a single verse in the Bible suggests that God has a wife, but Isaiah 44:24 explicitly says that the Lord made all things by Himself.  Moreover, several passages in Isaiah indicate that there is only one God and there is none beside Him (44:8; 45:6) or like Him (46:9).

  book of mormons
"...these spirit children were organized, possessing divine, eternal, and godlike attributes, inherited from their Heavenly Father and Mother.  There in the spirit world they were reared to maturity, becoming grown spirit men and women prior to coming upon this earth" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 127).
"Jesus is man's spiritual brother.  We dwelt with Him in the spirit world as members of that large society of eternal intelligences, which included our Heavenly Parents and all the personages who have become mortal beings upon this earth or who ever shall come here to dwell...Jesus was the 'firstborn,' and so He is our eldest brother" (Ibid., p.21)
 
Bible....
Jesus was and is Almighty God from everlasting to everlasting.  He is the creator of all that exists and is "firstborn" over all creation in the sense that He is the preeminent originator of life and the universe (Mic 5:2; Ps 90:2; Jn 1:1-3; Ac 3:14-15; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2).  This meaning for the word "firstborn" can be understood by comparing Genesis 41:51-52, which states that Manasseh was Joseph's "firstborn" son while Ephraim was the second, with Jeremiah 31:9, where God calls Ephraim the "firstborn."  Obviously, "firstborn" does not always mean the one literally born first.

  book of moroms
Death and sin came through the fall of Adam and Eve.  But their deed was not actually a "sin."  It was really a blessing because it enabled man to continue progressing on toward eternal life.  "They (the Christian world) have been long taught that Adam and Eve were great transgressors...We, the children of Adam....should rejoice with them, that through their fall and the atonement of Jesus Christ, the way of eternal life has been opened up to us" (Articles of Faith, p. 476) 

Bible...
Rejoicing is hardly the proper response to Adam's sin.  Because of that sin, both Adam and Eve died spiritually and their physical bodies began to deteriorate.  Eve was given pain and sorrow in child-bearing, Adam was required to work and sweat in order to eat, the entire creation was cursed, they were thrown out of the Garden forever, and the entire human race was destined to be born dead in sins and children of god's wrath by nature.  To rejoice in the fall of man is to embrace Satan's lie.  It was Satan who deceived Eve by convincing her that sin was good and would bring her knowledge and reward.  (Gen 3:16-24; Rom 3:23; 5:12-15, 17-19; 8:19-22 Eph 2:1-5; 1Jn 3:4)

The Doctrine of Salvation
Christ's death on the cross (the atonement) canceled the penalty of death imposed on ALL men through Adam's sin, thereby ensuring that all men would be redeemed - resurrected and given immortality (the reuniting of spirit with body)-as a gift.
"If there had been no atonement, temporal death would have remained forever, and there never would have remained forever, and there never would have been a resurrection.  The body would have remained forever in the grave" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p.63)

"Redemption from death, through the sufferings of Christ, is for all men, both the righteous and the wicked" (Ibid., p. 65)

"Immortality is a free gift which comes by grace alone without works on man's part" (Ibid., p. 377)
 
Bible....
Not everyone is blessed through Christ's crucifixion.  Only those who accept His sacrifice and surrender themselves to Him (Ro 10:9) will receive the benefit of Jesus' death and resurrection, which is forgiveness of sins (Act 10:43) and salvation (Rom 3:24).  Eternal life "in Christ," and not just simply eternal existence through resurrection, is the gift offered by God to humanity (Rom 6:23).  This gift is obtainable only by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-10). 

Jesus' death serves to reconcile all believers to God (Rom 5:10).  In dying, Jesus broke down the wall of separation between us and God that was present through man's disobedience to the Law (Eph 2:11-22)
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2008 - 7:58AM #2
withwonderingawe
Posts: 6,091
Thank you for coming with your questions although they seem to have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon for you haven’t quoted from it even once.

It appears to me you’ve been to some anti website and copied off a number of their questions and distortions. I’m hoping your use of “morons” is also an accident, one can’t really want to listen and exchange ideas if one is deliberately being rude.

Ya have to understand that there are techniques to writing this type of propaganda. As I answer a few of your questions I’ll try to explain the technique so you can kind of open your eyes to how it is done.

1, The Bible is far below the other standard Works because it is full of errors (wherever it disagrees with Mormon doctrine).

Technique; replacing what Mormons actually believe with distorted assumptions of the writer makes.

We are under covenant to accept the Bible as the word of God and live by its principles.

I’ve worn out three Bibles in the last 20 years. We devote a year of study to the Bible every four years and cross reference to it as we study our other standard works. At the back of our Bibles there is an extensive topical guide which cross references topic after topic.

But we do not accept the word for word infallibility theories of some Christian churches, not even for the Book of Mormon. Neither Matthew, Mark, Luke or John ever claimed infallibility.

Paul simply wrote some letters which I assume he prayed over as he wrote but he never claimed God wrote every word or that every thing men need to know was there.

The personalities and traditions of the individuals came through as they wrote, ie women not speaking in church or not cutting their hair.

The passage which gives the most support to the theory of the Trinity 1 John 5:7 was added to the Bible and is not found in the early manuscripts. There is a whole false doctoral theory built on a false passage.



2, The only authoritative scriptures given by God are the 39 books of the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible.

In Deut 4 it says;
[FONT=BEJMB A+ A Garamond]Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I commanded you. [/FONT]

What, we have to throw out the rest of the Bible??

Ya know it wasn’t until about 200 ad that the Bible began to take shape but Hebrews and Peter’s writings were missing.

Most scholars agree that 3 John was written after the Book of Revelations does that mean we now must rip it out of our Bibles?

[FONT=BEJMB A+ A Garamond]In Matt 2 it says Jesus “came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called Nazarene” [/FONT]

[FONT=BEJMB A+ A Garamond]he quoted from a text which we don’t have. [/FONT]

[FONT=BEJMB A+ A Garamond]Think about that, there is a book which Matthew considered scripture and the word of God which we don’t have. [/FONT]

Paul wrote; “Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings.” 2 Thess 5

And John wrote in Rev 11 of to two prophets yet to come “and they shall prophesy”.

Clearly the Lord has not finished speaking to man.
Wise men still seek him.
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2008 - 8:07AM #3
withwonderingawe
Posts: 6,091
3, One God

Technique; Give a one line out of context sensational quote without any back ground theology.

Now here’s the quote in a little more context;
…He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity. You cannot comprehend this; but when you can, it will be to you a matter of great consolation.

Now we can go into a deeper discussion on what this all means but it is Biblical based on

Gen 1 “And God said, Let usmakeman in our image, after our likeness

Ps 82 “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

Heb 12 “the Father of spirits

Deut 10 “Yahweh said to Moses “For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God”

Eph 3 “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named”


4, The Nature of God

Technique; once again a small carefully selected out of context quote without any theological back ground.

You are quoting from what is called “the King Follett Discourse”

“If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves….
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! ….. If the veil were rent today…. if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, ….he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible….”

Joseph then quoted from John 5

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth .. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself”

The doctrinal theory is, the Father played the roll of a Messiah on a different planet at a different time. As a sinless yet mortal man of flesh, blood and bone Christ went to the cross for all of our sins, so too did his Father before him for his generation of gods. As a God he had life in himself and was resurrected as Christ was resurrected with a perfect immortal body.

As Brigham indicated “But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity.”
Wise men still seek him.
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2008 - 8:11AM #4
withwonderingawe
Posts: 6,091
I’ll look at one of your references

Num 23:19 is an example of mistranslation which has led to false doctrine.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent…”

The word “man” there is not adam but ish and is a comparison word which is not often expressed in our English translations. It compares one type of mankind to another; a woman to a man, a short man to a tall man.

As an example; “Noah was a just man”. If this was written in full context it would say ‘unlike the rest of mankind Noah was a just man”

If Num 23 was written to express the writers intent it would read something like this ‘unlike mortal man the immortal God does not lie’

The phrase “son of man’ is ‘ben Adam’ or son of the mortal man Adam. It is saying once again that God is not a mortal man but an immortal man.



Son1; God the Father, the eternal God is Spirit (Isa 55:8-9; 6:1-5; 57:15; Pss 90:2; 113:5-6; 123:1; Jn 4:24: 8:23

The technique there is to assume a theological position as being absolutely true and thus Biblical. In this case it built on the definition of a ‘spirit’ being an “immaterial substance”.

The truth is the Bible does not define what the physical nature of a spirit is. It does say that a spirit always appears as a man and that it has power over the elements. It can come and go seen and unseen, it can appear in a locked room. But then so could Christ with his resurrected immortal body which his apostles handled, Luke 24.

Except for John 4:24 not one of those passages says anything at all about God having a body or not. The Bible also says “God is light” so which is it this immaterial substance or light?

William Barclay translates John 4 this way “God is a spiritual being, and his worshipers must offer him a truly spiritual worship”

In Rev 21 it says that after the thousand years, the resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgment that there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth. It says the New Jerusalem will come down from God and that there would be no temple there in because;

“for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.”

In verse 3 it says; “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

Jesus referred to his own body as a temple or tabernacle and so too with Peter and Paul. The Lord God Almighty will dwell here with us in his tabernacle or body.


Son1;According to the moroms
God the Father became a God after learning truth, aggressively pursuing godhood, and being obedient to the laws of the gospel.

Technique; this is a distortion and way over simplification of the doctrine.

I’ll simply quote Heb 5: 8-9
“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”
Wise men still seek him.
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9 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2008 - 8:14AM #5
withwonderingawe
Posts: 6,091
I’m going to end there because it is just more of the same sort of twisted foolishness and not any real attempt to understand and discuss Mormonism.

And like I said this is not about the Book of Mormon at all.
Wise men still seek him.
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9 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2008 - 12:30AM #6
bytebear
Posts: 1,451
What is really sad is that his post is titled "Doing some reading" but it was obviously not from the Book of Mormon.  But you are right, those are all textbook anti-Mormon issues, which have simple resolutions that no church member concerns themselves with.  WWA, you did a wonderful job going over each point, but it really should be about reading the Book of Mormon.

DOES ANYONE WHO ISN'T LDS READ THIS BOOK BEFORE COMMENTING ON MORMONISM?
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