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Switch to Forum Live View When Was Jesus Born?
7 years ago  ::  Nov 28, 2007 - 12:22AM #1
whatson2nd
Posts: 2,936
.




Matthew has Jesus born when Herod was King of Judea. Accordingly, the latest Jesus could have been born was 4BCE, that was the year that Herod died. 


Luke has Jesus born when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria. Cyrenius, who, in Roman history is Quirinius,  became Governor of Syria ten years after Herod died.

Therein lies a difference of ten years.


So, when was Jesus really born?


.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2007 - 4:12AM #2
ESTABIZ
Posts: 88
[You are coming across the classic type of problems with the Bible.  At this time of the year you should be asking when was he born (if at all) because the 25th of December was the Catholic Churchs idea of replacing a Roman festival called Satania which honoured the Roman G-d Saturn - which is also the name of a planet.  All the planets are named after the Roman dieties. 


Matthew has Jesus born when Herod was King of Judea. Accordingly, the latest Jesus could have been born was 4BCE, that was the year that Herod died. 


Luke has Jesus born when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria. Cyrenius, who, in Roman history is Quirinius,  became Governor of Syria ten years after Herod died.

Therein lies a difference of ten years.


So, when was Jesus really born?


.[/QUOTE]
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2007 - 8:34AM #3
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
. Is there any real reason to believe that either of those two books were faithful history books, even by ancient standards? If so, then one can also take the pre-modern stance that god inseminated Mary, though he didn't need to since according to John Jesus had pre-existed and was merely "sent" by god as an emissary to the Earth, which of course is another pre-modern stance. I don't believe "Mary" as mama of Jesus was even mentioned in John by name. Miraculous births and emissaries from God were common in the worldview of the time. We are probably, as much as anything, seeing a combination of the miraculous births (for instance Moses and Isaac) of the Hebrew scriptures with the notion of famous people and gods being born of virgins (there is a slew of them) in the gospel fictions. (Even if one could get past the foolish notion of the Holy Seed or Holy Spirit or Emissary of God, one would have to explain how the authors would have known this, when it seems evident in the original (earliest extant) gospel (which is actually a prolonged parable, not history) that no one knew who the father was, or he wouldn't have been called "Mary's son." A better question might be why there was such a huge difference in the two narratives, or why pastors unethically blend the two versions.
DDC
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2007 - 11:45AM #4
Geocorona
Posts: 302
It's quite possible that the gospel authors merely wanted to indicate that Jesus had lived within the lifetime of people still living, and they had no idea what year he was supposedly born.

There was a popular belief among the first Christians that Judgment Day was imminent, and would happen while eyewitnesses still walked the earth.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 25, 2007 - 1:15PM #5
MisterC
Posts: 1,865
The fictional birth narratives are interesting in what the authors were doing.

Matt portrayed Herod as the evil Pharoah of Egypt, in Palestine, who was killing all of the children around Bethlehem like the fictional Pharoah did in the Moses story. Jesus becomes a new Moses. Matt probably thought using the name "Joseph" would add to the updated story, and updated it was! It seems that, over a period of years, Herod the Great had all of the remaining Hasmonean legacy killed, including his wife Miriamme (Mary) and her brother.... (drumroll).... Joseph. And, the Moses imagery is perfectly fitting for the one who is leading those who will hear and see, ushering in the "Kingdom of God."

Turning to Luke, we find that he has a different slant on his Jesus than Matt. First, he seems to really dislike Judeans and magicians. (We infer that from the stories of the ten lepers, the good Samaritan, Simon the magician, etc) He leaves the three magicians (wise men) out of the story and, since he has set his story later than Matthew (for symbolic purposes), doesn't involve Herod the Great. Instead, he has the kid born in a tremendously disgusing place, a trough where donkeys, horses and the like slurp water, snort and drool. If this isn't bad enough, the visitors are shepherds, who, according to The Mishnah, written in the same century (second) as Luke/Acts, are stereotyped as thieves and even worse... Single men are not even allowed to tend herds! (That is really disgusting.) Of course, Luke's Jesus is expected to usher in "the year of the Lord's favor," releasing captives, making the blind see and the oppressed loose, bringing good news to the poor. What a wonderful way to create the birth of someone who is to do this!

DDC
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2008 - 4:40PM #6
Bob_Bennett
Posts: 916
The Urantia Book has it that Jesus was born on Aug. 21, 7 B.C., such that his sun would be conjunct the king star, Regulus.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2010 - 1:07PM #7
MarleneEmmett5
Posts: 1,704

Nov 28, 2007 -- 12:22AM, whatson2nd wrote:

. Matthew has Jesus born when Herod was King of Judea. Accordingly, the latest Jesus could have been born was 4BCE, that was the year that Herod died. Luke has Jesus born when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria. Cyrenius, who, in Roman history is Quirinius, became Governor of Syria ten years after Herod died. Therein lies a difference of ten years. So, when was Jesus really born? .



 


There's still some question as "To the exact date/year and MONTH as to when Jesus
Was born~ and it all has to do with the calendar.

From the Goseples,we know that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great,
And we know that he "ordered the Slaughter of the Innocents"~that all male childern
up to the age of two years old be put to the sword"

The above one wasn't the "First Slaughter of the Innocents".
in the old testament,Moses "had been put upon the Nile to escape Seti I's order
"to kill all the male Hebrew children~up to two years of age"


They go in order of like this:
Seti's that Moses his life
Ramses's pronouncement that led to "The First Passover"
Herod the Great's order that happened when Jesus was born.


Now as to when Jesus was born during the reign of Caesar Agustus aka Octavian it is he
"who calls for the census" that took place when Jesus was born~then Joseph and Mary
take the child away to Egypt~They only return when Herod dies and after Caesar Agustus
and his secessor Tiberius has died. When that was an how old Jesus was at the time is
somthing that is "part of the lost years of Jesus".

To see what the reign of Roman emperors are go to:
www.Roman-emperors.org/impendex


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5 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2010 - 3:25PM #8
RJMcElwain
Posts: 2,965

If God wrote the Bible, you would think He would've cleared this up before sending it to the publisher.Wink

Robert J. McElwain

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson

"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral."
St. Thomas Aquinas

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2010 - 3:40PM #9
Dennis
Posts: 1,433

Since the books weren't historical in any modern sense, isn't the exercise in "when was Jesus born" or "the lost years of Jesus" just playing around? The gospeleers were engaged in "spreading good news," not recording anything they knew or would have known, especially in the two birth narratives... In fact, the earliest birth narrative (in Matthew) is written to amplify the Markan motif of Jesus as the new Moses. (The imagery of the Egyptian slaughter also fit Herod the Great, since he apparently slaughtered the remaining Maccobean "royalty" during his tenure.)


Here is another way to look at the Lukan fiction:


In the Lukan tale, written by a Gentile for Gentiles, we have Caesar Augustus' name at the beginning playing a mnemonic role... He supposedly fulfilled Virgils's prophecy of a child who would grow up to rule over an era of world peace and abundance" (Miller, Born Divine, p. 55). This "son of God" was said to be Augustus. The census date was not as much "inaccurate" as it was a reminder to the people who heard or read the gospel of the hardships the Roman government had placed on those they conquered... Luke forcing Mary to go to Bethlehem, which is incidentally unhistorical since women needn't "register" for the census and folks didn't go to their "ancestral homes" to register was one more stroke of brilliance for the author. Having her go through what would have been a hardship, through the rough area of Samaria, having the kid born in a trough, certainly filled the people who heard/read the story with animosity toward the Romans.  So, the purposes of the author in this are fairly clear and seem to be quite propogandic in nature...


The first three chapters probably were added to the original gospel. For the last hundred or so years, quite a few scholars have seen the original Luke as the gospel Marcion used. It came without this tale. In light of the research showing that Acts of the Apostles is fictive in nature, with similarities and even the use of Homer, Vergil, Josephus and others, written as a response to Marcionism, it is very possible that the canonical version of Luke we have is also a "tweaking," some major, some minor, to the gospel Marcion used. The birth narrative was a major tweaking. 


Dennis


Apr 8, 2010 -- 1:07PM, MarleneEmmett5 wrote:


Nov 28, 2007 -- 12:22AM, whatson2nd wrote:

. Matthew has Jesus born when Herod was King of Judea. Accordingly, the latest Jesus could have been born was 4BCE, that was the year that Herod died. Luke has Jesus born when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria. Cyrenius, who, in Roman history is Quirinius, became Governor of Syria ten years after Herod died. Therein lies a difference of ten years. So, when was Jesus really born? .



 


There's still some question as "To the exact date/year and MONTH as to when Jesus
Was born~ and it all has to do with the calendar.

From the Goseples,we know that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great,
And we know that he "ordered the Slaughter of the Innocents"~that all male childern
up to the age of two years old be put to the sword"

The above one wasn't the "First Slaughter of the Innocents".
in the old testament,Moses "had been put upon the Nile to escape Seti I's order
"to kill all the male Hebrew children~up to two years of age"


They go in order of like this:
Seti's that Moses his life
Ramses's pronouncement that led to "The First Passover"
Herod the Great's order that happened when Jesus was born.


Now as to when Jesus was born during the reign of Caesar Agustus aka Octavian it is he
"who calls for the census" that took place when Jesus was born~then Joseph and Mary
take the child away to Egypt~They only return when Herod dies and after Caesar Agustus
and his secessor Tiberius has died. When that was an how old Jesus was at the time is
somthing that is "part of the lost years of Jesus".

To see what the reign of Roman emperors are go to:
www.Roman-emperors.org/impendex






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5 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2010 - 5:19PM #10
teilhard
Posts: 51,414

Nov 28, 2007 -- 12:22AM, whatson2nd wrote:

.


Matthew has Jesus born when Herod was King of Judea. Accordingly, the latest Jesus could have been born was 4BCE, that was the year that Herod died.


Luke has Jesus born when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria. Cyrenius, who, in Roman history is Quirinius, became Governor of Syria ten years after Herod died.


Therein lies a difference of ten years. So, when was Jesus really born? .



Obviously SOME Time around that Decade ...


The Canonical Gospels also record that The Historical Lord Jesus of Nazareth was "about 30 Years Old" when He began His Ministry ... AND ... that He was Crucified on Order of Pontius Pilate, who was The Roman Imperial Governor of Judea during 26 - 36 C. E. ...


So ... There abouts ...

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