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Switch to Forum Live View Extrasensory Perception: Pure Craziness?
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 2:14AM #31
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

Jan 14, 2011 -- 1:17AM, mountain_man wrote:


Jan 13, 2011 -- 11:10PM, Stardove wrote:

I have witnessed too much not to be a believer!!!


So for those which don't, it is your loss.



Sticking with reality is never a loss. There are too many wonderous things out there to enjoy. I have no need to make up magical things just to make humans to be more than they really are.





Beautifully said, MM.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 4:04AM #32
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jan 13, 2011 -- 4:44PM, Erey wrote:


... well that is the problem these kinds of paranormal things don't lend themselves very well to replication.  I think there have been some pretty incredible findings in some studies but it is hard to reproduce those studies



Yeah.


Like, I had this incredible streak of luck once playing a board game.


It's hard to reproduce the next time you throw the dice.


That's all there is to the 'studies' you speak about, by science.


In fact, probability theory and statistics are extremely powerful tools that we humans have developed. I helped us getting rid of worshipping "Fortuna" and other gods and goddesses:
www.businessweek.com/1996/43/b349881.htm


Statisticians, in the telling of Peter L. Bernstein, are nothing less  than Promethean heroes. He argues that the people who mastered the  calculation of probabilities, beginning in 16th century Italy, stole  from the gods something more precious than fire--namely, the  understanding of risk. We can't see the future, of course, Bernstein  writes in Against the Gods: The Remarkable Story of Risk. But by  calculating probabilities, we can do the next best thing: make  intelligent decisions--and take control of our lives--on the basis of  scientific forecasts. The mastery of risk is the foundation of modern  life, he contends, from insurance to the stock market to engineering,  science, and medicine.


And allow me to re-post this gem of xkcd's:


tl;dr
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 10:48AM #33
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,149

Jan 14, 2011 -- 1:10AM, mountain_man wrote:


Jan 13, 2011 -- 10:39PM, solfeggio wrote:

  I don't care if something can be 'scientifically proven' or not, whether some unusual occurence can or cannot be replicated, or even if every scientist in the world trashes paranormal experiences.  As far as I'm concerned, ESP exists.....



That's OK, many share such beliefs and no amount of proof otherwise will convince them. They want to believe and that's it. Which is fine, they can believe all they want, they can maintain their immunity to the facts all they want, they can keep their mind closed all they want. I'll stick with facts instead of beliefs.





Many would argue (and I would agree) that the mentality that says "I'll stick with only the facts" or "only what can be proven" is the one that is closed minded.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 11:02AM #34
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

I'm all for reality. An independent investigation of reality -- detached from emotion and preconceptions -- is at the core of my values and religious faith.


I just think reality is a heck of a lot wider and deeper than some want to acknowledge.


As for extrasensory powers and such, I've heard enough plausible stories from perfectly rational people, and witnessed enough first hand, and even had a couple instances myself, to think they exist.


Not to believe, not to know -- but to think they do.


I don't see any thing magical, weird or supernatural about it. I don't believe in magic. If they do exist, they are simply a part of our existance that we don't fully understand as of yet. As such, they might not be something we could nail with an experiment in a lab, or at least not by the methods we've been trying so far. It might be, say, like trying to cram a whole jar of vasilene into a thimble. It ain't gonna work, and the results are going to be messy.


Anyway, I think it's interesting, but not something I would base any major life decisions on. And if they don't exist -- no big deal.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 11:04AM #35
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jan 14, 2011 -- 10:48AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Jan 14, 2011 -- 1:10AM, mountain_man wrote:


Jan 13, 2011 -- 10:39PM, solfeggio wrote:

  I don't care if something can be 'scientifically proven' or not, whether some unusual occurence can or cannot be replicated, or even if every scientist in the world trashes paranormal experiences.  As far as I'm concerned, ESP exists.....



That's OK, many share such beliefs and no amount of proof otherwise will convince them. They want to believe and that's it. Which is fine, they can believe all they want, they can maintain their immunity to the facts all they want, they can keep their mind closed all they want. I'll stick with facts instead of beliefs.





Many would argue (and I would agree) that the mentality that says "I'll stick with only the facts" or "only what can be proven" is the one that is closed minded.





It was once considered "fact" by the vast majority of the most astute minds on the planet that the earth was flat. Not because people were stupid, they just lacked the means at that time to see the larger picture.


Strict materialism, IMO, fails on much the same grounds. It assumes what we know now, or the parameters by which we know, is all that can possibly exist. That's silly on its face.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 12:45PM #36
REteach
Posts: 14,542

Got this today from the state epidemiologist:


First it was soccer match predictions by an octopus, now Gambian pouched rats perform laboratory testing. A recent study in the American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Tropical Medicine and Hygiene (www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/83/6/1308 ) described new research that utilized Gambian pouched rats to detect sputum samples that contained Mycobacterium tuberculosis


 


The rats achieved a sensitivity of 86.6 percent and specificity of 93 percent, which is good when compared to acid fast bacillus smears. Unfortunately, the sniffing rat test cannot replace traditional TB cultures and sensitivity testing. It also compares poorly to the Mycobacterium tuberculosis test-direct detection method (MTD) performed at the State Hygienic Laboratory by humans.


 


The scientific community has expressed some skepticism; however, the Gambian pouched rats appear to have diverse talents. They have also proven their ability to sniff out land mines



I don't think we need extrasensory perception to explain this stuff. Nonhuman perception will do it.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 12:51PM #37
mountain_man
Posts: 39,272

Jan 14, 2011 -- 10:48AM, Girlchristian wrote:

Many would argue (and I would agree) that the mentality that says "I'll stick with only the facts" or "only what can be proven" is the one that is closed minded.



Then they would be confused on what the term "open mind" actually means. Having an open mind does not mean one has to believe everything anyone makes up. That's just plain silly. To have a mind that is so "open" that reality and reason fall out is just plain silly. Their mind is not open, it's missing. The mind has to be open enough so that all the garbage falls out but some sense of rational thought remains.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 12:53PM #38
mountain_man
Posts: 39,272

Jan 14, 2011 -- 11:02AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I'm all for reality. An independent investigation of reality -- detached from emotion and preconceptions -- is at the core of my values and religious faith.....



If that were true you would not be believing in ESP and such. It's been independently investigated with detached emotions and preconceptions. There's nothing there.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 5:24PM #39
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jan 14, 2011 -- 11:04AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


It was once considered "fact" by the vast majority of the most astute minds on the planet that the earth was flat.



Nonsense. This is unadulterated propaganda, mytmouse.


Name just THREE "most astute minds" who believed that.

tl;dr
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 5:37PM #40
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

You do know, don't you, that the ancient Greek mathematicians and astronomers proved the earth round, and in fact very closely estimated its actual circumference.

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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