Post Reply
Page 5 of 8  •  Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Extrasensory Perception: Pure Craziness?
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 6:40PM #41
Zulaika
Posts: 20

I am of the opinion that until we advance enough in our methods, our technology and our rationales to be able to scientifically prove that we have the capability to scientifically prove everything there is to know about the workings of the universe and the human mind, anything is possible.


I do not believe in ESP, however I can not in good conscious dis-believe. Claims of a person being pyschic is proven false. That does not mean psychic abilities are an impossibility, it means that the person was mistaken. Claims of a psychic "event" or strange coincedences are usually subject to the "dunno" factor. It's assumed it can't be ESP, but what it actually is can't be concluded.


Science has backtracked too many times over the years due to improved technology or methods for it to make such claims.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 6:54PM #42
Stardove
Posts: 15,268

Let me open this can of worms.


How many believe in the prophets in the Bible?  Were they not experiencing ESP? 


Even the New Testament speaks of those who will tell prophesies as a gift.  Would this be the same thing as ESP?


Since atheists are not believers, you do not have to respond to my can opening.  Sealed

Beliefnet Community Wide Moderator ~ Peace Love Stardove
Problems? Send a message to Beliefnet_community

The words I speak and write carry energy and power, so I choose them with care and clear purpose. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 6:56PM #43
mountain_man
Posts: 39,105

Jan 14, 2011 -- 6:40PM, Zulaika wrote:

I am of the opinion that until we advance enough in our methods, our technology and our rationales to be able to scientifically prove that we have the capability to scientifically prove everything there is to know about the workings of the universe and the human mind, anything is possible.



It is not possible for my computer chair to design, build, and fly, a jet aricraft.


I do not believe in ESP, however I can not in good conscious dis-believe. Claims of a person being pyschic is proven false. That does not mean psychic abilities are an impossibility, it means that the person was mistaken. Claims of a psychic "event" or strange coincedences are usually subject to the "dunno" factor. It's assumed it can't be ESP, but what it actually is can't be concluded.



It pretty much has been concluded. There is no evidence of any kind of information being transmitted from the future, or anywhere else, in such a way that a human brain could perceive it. There's just nothing there. Some point to the energy being picked up in EEGs. That "energy" is being picked up by very sensitive sensors placed right on the scalp and then highly amplified. That "energy" drops off according to the Inverse Square Law. That means that such a weak signal won't travel more than a few inches from your brain, if that. Basically, in order for any form of ESP or any such paranormal powers would have to violate the laws of physics in order to exist.That makes the claims of paranormal powers to be extraordinary claims which means they have to provide extraordinary proofs. More claims or whining about not being understood aren't going to make it.


Science has backtracked too many times over the years due to improved technology or methods for it to make such claims.



Science does not "backtrack." It updates with when new information is available and confirmed.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 7:39PM #44
piecesofthewhole
Posts: 1,380

Jan 13, 2011 -- 10:39PM, solfeggio wrote:


And not just ESP, either.  I am a firm believer in paranormal activities of every sort, from near-death experiences, telepathy, sixth sense in nonhuman animals, ghosts, mediums, reincarnation, past-life regressions, and automatic writing. 





What is automatic writing?


 


On an aside, Erey, and anyone else interested in the quirkiness of the human mind might enjoy books by Oliver Sacks


www.oliversacks.com/

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 7:46PM #45
Zulaika
Posts: 20

Jan 14, 2011 -- 6:56PM, mountain_man wrote:


It is not possible for my computer chair to design, build, and fly, a jet aricraft.



I am hoping that you realise that my "anything" was in relation to controversial topics such as the existence of ESP as pertaining to this thread, correct? You may be more comfortable with me rephrasing the last part to "some things cannot be concisely concluded at this time."


It pretty much has been concluded. There is no evidence of any kind of information being transmitted from the future, or anywhere else, in such a way that a human brain could perceive it. There's just nothing there. Some point to the energy being picked up in EEGs. That "energy" is being picked up by very sensitive sensors placed right on the scalp and then highly amplified. That "energy" drops off according to the Inverse Square Law. That means that such a weak signal won't travel more than a few inches from your brain, if that. Basically, in order for any form of ESP or any such paranormal powers would have to violate the laws of physics in order to exist.That makes the claims of paranormal powers to be extraordinary claims which means they have to provide extraordinary proofs. More claims or whining about not being understood aren't going to make it.



Considering we are still discovering new things about the makeup of the universe and the atom, forgive me if I do not take "laws of physics" as an adequate reasoning for why ESP or ESP like abilities are impossible. It may be an energy or wavelength we can not detect yet. Perhaps it is a "sixth sense" reaction to minute stimulus that we haven't found a good way to test in a controlled environment. Or perhaps we don't know enough or can't test accurately enough to know for sure.


I am not attacking science, scientists or our discoveries by my opinion on what the documented advancement of science means when it comes to topics like this. People had "scientific" evidence for "bad air" or miasma that we now know to be germs and viruses. People with degrees and experience in human culture decried the relevance of the hand held phones, personal computers and the internet. 


Science does not "backtrack." It updates with when new information is available and confirmed.



I am sure that scientific claims that mothers shouldn't breastfeed because it wasn't healthy for the baby, and then "updating" with that it is healthy and the best thing barring extenuating circumstances counts as "backtracking." If you would prefer, I can simply say science has proven itself incomplete and in need of "updating" too many times for the current hypotheses and evidences to be considered an absolute authority by me.


It amounts to the same thing. 


You apparently have more faith in the current scientific capabilities of man than I do, which is fine. But it is just that, a faith or belief and opinion. I have mine, you have yours.


I did not mean to offend, if that is why your response is a bit defensive/antagonistic.



Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 8:05PM #46
mountain_man
Posts: 39,105

Jan 14, 2011 -- 7:46PM, Zulaika wrote:

I am hoping that you realise that my "anything" was in relation to controversial topics such as the existence of ESP as pertaining to this thread, correct? You may be more comfortable with me rephrasing the last part to "some things cannot be concisely concluded at this time."



My point being that not everything is possible. Some things might be possible, but breaking the laws of physics, at this time, is not. ESP would be breaking the laws of physics.


Considering we are still discovering new things about the makeup of the universe and the atom, forgive me if I do not take "laws of physics" as an adequate reasoning for why ESP or ESP like abilities are impossible. It may be an energy or wavelength we can not detect yet. Perhaps it is a "sixth sense" reaction to minute stimulus that we haven't found a good way to test in a controlled environment. Or perhaps we don't know enough or can't test accurately enough to know for sure.



That's basically an Argument to the Future. It's a logical fallacy. I don't want to hear maybe or possibly, I want proofs. So far those claiming this stuff exists have not come up with any proofs, any possible unknown wavelengths, or such. All they've come up with, for over a hundred years, are empty claims and charlatans.


I am not attacking science, scientists or our discoveries by my opinion on what the documented advancement of science means when it comes to topics like this. People had "scientific" evidence for "bad air" or miasma that we now know to be germs and viruses. People with degrees and experience in human culture decried the relevance of the hand held phones, personal computers and the internet.



More excuses. That people made uneducated guesses in a pre scientific era does not mean that science is wrong now.


I am sure that scientific claims that mothers shouldn't breastfeed....



There never were any scientific claims for that. There were, however, many claims by those wishing to sell books.


...You apparently have more faith in the current scientific capabilities ...



Not faith, but knowledge.


I did not mean to offend, if that is why your response is a bit defensive/antagonistic.



There has been no defensiveness or antagonism in any of my replies to anyone on this topic.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 8:30PM #47
Zulaika
Posts: 20

Jan 14, 2011 -- 8:05PM, mountain_man wrote:


My point being that not everything is possible. Some things might be possible, but breaking the laws of physics, at this time, is not. ESP would be breaking the laws of physics.



I agree, which is why in my reply I specifically said "some things cannot be concluded." I do find it odd that you had a qualifier "at this time" which is precisely my point and what I said. I find myself wondering what the point of your response is.


That's basically an Argument to the Future. It's a logical fallacy. I don't want to hear maybe or possibly, I want proofs. So far those claiming this stuff exists have not come up with any proofs, any possible unknown wavelengths, or such. All they've come up with, for over a hundred years, are empty claims and charlatans.



And Argument to the Future is saying that someday evidence will appear that proves my point. Considering my point is that the very nature of science is that it advances, I fail to see how I am using a logical fallacy. I did not say ESP exists. I made no such claim. And until any and all unexplained trends or events can be concisely explained and controlled your "proof" that it is impossible is as equally flexible. 


Incidents are proven false. The claims of individuals are proven false. But until all the weirdness disappears from the world, I will maintain that there is a measure of possibility. In other words, I personally have not said "there is" just that not all bases of been covered on the "there isn't."


More excuses. That people made uneducated guesses in a pre scientific era does not mean that science is wrong now.



We are more educated. We are not all knowing.


There never were any scientific claims for that. There were, however, many claims by those wishing to sell books.



Alright, perhaps it would be better to use the less recent diagram of the atom (that resembled a flat brainstorming web), or Newton's corpuscular theory of light that was replaced by the dual wave-particle theory. Is that a better example? Theories are science's way of "not absolute but we're pretty sure" and are replaced by "more accurate" theories ad nauseum until we finally figure out what the law is. 


That is the process.


Not faith, but knowledge.



As I have maintained that we do not know everything, it comes across as less knowledge and more inherent arrogance. You are free to disagree and say that we do know everything.


There has been no defensiveness or antagonism in any of my replies to anyone on this topic.



And so I am to understand that you are always this dismissive and abrasive in your responses? Fair enough =)


Edited for English

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 9:57PM #48
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jan 14, 2011 -- 12:53PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jan 14, 2011 -- 11:02AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I'm all for reality. An independent investigation of reality -- detached from emotion and preconceptions -- is at the core of my values and religious faith.....



If that were true you would not be believing in ESP and such. It's been independently investigated with detached emotions and preconceptions. There's nothing there.





I don't belive in ESP. I don't really "believe" in anything. Belief is mental masturbation, as far as I'm concerned.


I either know things, don't know things, think they might be possible, or think they probably are not possible.


I don't know that it exists. I think it's plausible that it could. It's also plausible that it does not.


The experiences I've had, or the things I've known of, that might qualify, aren't really the sort of thing you could test in a lab type situation anyway. They've mostly been people sensing that something is about to happen, or something just did happen. Either on a personal level -- such as involving a family member. Or, on a macro, or historical level. Such as 9/11, or the death of Princess Diana.


I've seen things occour that can't just simply be explained away -- at least in terms of people knowing -- or sensing -- that something was about to, or just had, happened.


Past putting a thousands of people in one place and monitoring them 24/7 until something monumental happens, again, I don't see how you could "test" it. And even then, the concious knowlege that they were under scrutiny would, IMO, probably sour it -- judging by the way I've seen it "work" thus far in my life. It almost has to come without the recipeint really thinking about it. Again, from what I've seen.


But I've seen, heard of and experienced enough in a circumstantial sense to be dubious about simply dismissing it out of hand as part of my emperical experience and investigation of reality.  

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2011 - 9:59PM #49
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jan 14, 2011 -- 6:54PM, Stardove wrote:


Let me open this can of worms.


How many believe in the prophets in the Bible?  Were they not experiencing ESP? 


Even the New Testament speaks of those who will tell prophesies as a gift.  Would this be the same thing as ESP?


Since atheists are not believers, you do not have to respond to my can opening. 




I think it's a different set of things. Prophecies -- as in the Biblical sort -- and ESP. That is, if ESP exists.


Again, I think it's plausible, but I don't think we know enough at this point to say either way.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2011 - 10:40AM #50
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

Star,


Many of the best theologians do not consider the "prophecies" of the Bible to be foretellings of future events.  That is not a true definition of the word.  The Prophets were speaking to, and revealing wisdom to, the people and rulers of their age.  There is truth and wisdom within that which we can and do apply, but they were not preaching about "pie in the sky by and by."

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 5 of 8  •  Prev 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook