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5 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2009 - 4:23PM #1
IDBC
Posts: 4,468

Do you think or believe that the claims of Paranormal or Supernatural can be validated or proved by Normal Science?

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2009 - 11:27AM #2
Brownowl33
Posts: 443

Jun 1, 2009 -- 4:23PM, IDBC wrote:


Do you think or believe that the claims of Paranormal or Supernatural can be validated or proved by Normal Science?




 


Sometimes, but usually not.  So many paranomal events seem to be one-time, such as crisis apparitions, and cannot ever be replicated.  Even well-observed events, such as a ghost that appears to many people at once, cannot be recreated, nor can the ghost be caused to appear on command.  So no, events like this (even though a reasonable person might consider them to be true, based on eye witness accounts and other evidence) cannot be "proven" in the sense that they can be done in a lab.


On the other hand, people who claim to be "psychic" CAN be tested, at least somewhat.  Many of them have been shown to be completely fraudulent (such as Sylvia Brown) or have failed standardized testing.  Likewise, some mythology based on supposedly supernatural events (such as "creationism") have long ago been shown to be false.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2009 - 4:32PM #3
IDBC
Posts: 4,468

Howdy Chris


Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:27AM, Brownowl33 wrote:


Jun 1, 2009 -- 4:23PM, IDBC wrote:


Do you think or believe that the claims of Paranormal or Supernatural can be validated or proved by Normal Science?



 


Sometimes, but usually not.  So many paranomal events seem to be one-time, such as crisis apparitions, and cannot ever be replicated.  Even well-observed events, such as a ghost that appears to many people at once, cannot be recreated, nor can the ghost be caused to appear on command.  So no, events like this (even though a reasonable person might consider them to be true, based on eye witness accounts and other evidence) cannot be "proven" in the sense that they can be done in a lab.



From time to time there have been "mass sightings-eyewitness accounts"  of the Virgin Mary or these accounts reliable lie the well observed events, such as  ghost that appears to many people at once.  


If a ghost cannot be caused to appear on command does that mean that all those mediums who hold seances with the dearly departed and hear dead people are frauds? 


 


Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:27AM, Brownowl33 wrote:

On the other hand, people who claim to be "psychic" CAN be tested, at least somewhat.  Many of them have been shown to be completely fraudulent (such as Sylvia Brown) or have failed standardized testing.



Many have been found to be completely fraudulent, have any been found to be completly valid? 


I did know that Sylvia Brown was found to be completely fraudulent!   I am shocked, shocked! After all such reasonable men like Montel Williams, Larry King and others had them on their shows.  


Thank God  there are genuine psychics like Uri Geller and Psychic Hecate Wink


 


 

Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:27AM, Brownowl33 wrote:

Likewise, some mythology based on supposedly supernatural events (such as "creationism") have long ago been shown to be false.



Creationism has not been shown to be  false to a Creationist.  


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5 years ago  ::  Aug 22, 2009 - 11:18PM #4
Blü
Posts: 24,838

If I claim I can read minds at a distance, or remotely view your desk either clairvoyantly or by out-of-body travel, or can move objects just by thought, or foretell the future, or speak to known dead people, then each such claim is testable.


As you know, no claimant has ever passed such a test to a standard satisfactory to science.  (I take it you have no problem with the dictum that extraordinary claims require extraordinary demonstration.)


These failures mean we presently have no basis for seriously considering that such mental powers exist outside of imagination.


 


Claims of contact with immaterial beings - gods, angels, devils, the dualist mind / soul / psyche, spirits of the dead &c - are also testable in principle, since the immaterial element must necessarily communicate with the material brain, and this must, with equal necessity, result in physically uncaused physical phenomena in the brain representing those communications. 


These failures likewise mean we presently have no basis for seriously considering that such communications occur outside of imagination.


It's also open to us to infer that the reason they don't occur is because no such immaterial beings are there - not surprising, perhaps, since 'immaterial' has no definition useful to science outside of 'imaginary' or 'non-existent'.  Rather, psychological and neurological (eg 'God Helmet') explanations fit the data better than any supernatural hypothesis.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 16, 2009 - 12:24AM #5
Erey
Posts: 18,575

I realize this is not perfect science but what about psychics who are able to provide remarkable information.  All this being recorded and backed up by mostly skeptical police?  That has to be something.


Maybe we just don't know how to best test the supernatural yet and once we find the right procedure we can then test the validity of an event or situation as truly paranormal or not.

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2011 - 9:08AM #6
Brownowl33
Posts: 443

Aug 21, 2009 -- 4:32PM, IDBC wrote:


Howdy Chris


Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:27AM, Brownowl33 wrote:


Jun 1, 2009 -- 4:23PM, IDBC wrote:


Do you think or believe that the claims of Paranormal or Supernatural can be validated or proved by Normal Science?



 


Sometimes, but usually not.  So many paranomal events seem to be one-time, such as crisis apparitions, and cannot ever be replicated.  Even well-observed events, such as a ghost that appears to many people at once, cannot be recreated, nor can the ghost be caused to appear on command.  So no, events like this (even though a reasonable person might consider them to be true, based on eye witness accounts and other evidence) cannot be "proven" in the sense that they can be done in a lab.



From time to time there have been "mass sightings-eyewitness accounts"  of the Virgin Mary or these accounts reliable lie the well observed events, such as  ghost that appears to many people at once.  


If a ghost cannot be caused to appear on command does that mean that all those mediums who hold seances with the dearly departed and hear dead people are frauds? 


 


Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:27AM, Brownowl33 wrote:

On the other hand, people who claim to be "psychic" CAN be tested, at least somewhat.  Many of them have been shown to be completely fraudulent (such as Sylvia Brown) or have failed standardized testing.



Many have been found to be completely fraudulent, have any been found to be completly valid? 


I did know that Sylvia Brown was found to be completely fraudulent!   I am shocked, shocked! After all such reasonable men like Montel Williams, Larry King and others had them on their shows.  


Thank God  there are genuine psychics like Uri Geller and Psychic Hecate


 


 

Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:27AM, Brownowl33 wrote:

Likewise, some mythology based on supposedly supernatural events (such as "creationism") have long ago been shown to be false.



Creationism has not been shown to be  false to a Creationist.  


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You




Many seance mediums ARE frauds; they've been caught cheating so many times,  I would hesitate to believe anything they did unless it was done under very, very controlled conditions. Ever notice how so many of them use the same script?  "There's an older woman here bringing roses. Have you ever known an older person who died?  Did their name start with "a?"  Ok, how about "b?"  How about "c?"  And so on. Uri Geller is a fake, too; his "spoon bending" stuff is nothing more than a cheap magic trick.  As for "creationism," well, it doesn't matter what a creationist thinks, it's still not true.  As the old saying goes, "you're entitled to your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to your own facts."  The Earth is billions of years old, was created by natural processes, and people and animals evolved.  That's fact, it's not opinion.  Whether you claim that the Earth is 3000 years old and dinosaurs are jokes put there by Satan, or that the Moon is made from green cheese and inhabited by glittery pink Moon People, you'd still be wrong.  "Creationism" is about as reasonable as insisting that there is no gravity and that the Sun is a giant lightbulb put there by Jesus.  As to Marian apparitions, in many cases I think they're mass hysteria.  In others, there might be some kind of phenomenon, but as to what it is, I don't know.  It would take a lot more than the claims of some religious fanatics (who, invariably, are the ones who see these sorts of thing....often times, these ghosts are "invisible" and appear only to them.....how convenient) to convince me.


For the record, I do think there are legitimate paranormal events; I just don't think they're the showy, tabloid stuff.  The Sylvia Brownes and Uri Gellers of this world are con artists who take the money of grieving and gullible people, but there are mediums who maintain a low profile, charge nothing, and seem to have an actual gift.  The point is, the fact that some things are true doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is, and one has to look at the big picture and not ignore reality (that is, natural processes and science) in favour of some airy-fairy mystical stuff.

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 21, 2011 - 4:38PM #7
IDBC
Posts: 4,468

Howdy Brown


Aug 21, 2009 -- 4:32PM, IDBC wrote:


Howdy Chris


Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:27AM, Brownowl33 wrote:


Jun 1, 2009 -- 4:23PM, IDBC wrote:


Do you think or believe that the claims of Paranormal or Supernatural can be validated or proved by Normal Science?



 


Sometimes, but usually not. 



Why not?


 


Feb 18, 2011 -- 9:08AM, Brownowl33 wrote:


 So many paranomal events seem to be one-time, such as crisis apparitions, and cannot ever be replicated.  Even well-observed events, such as a ghost that appears to many people at once, cannot be recreated, nor can the ghost be caused to appear on command. 


 


 So no, events like this (even though a reasonable person might consider them to be true, based on eye witness accounts and other evidence) cannot be "proven" in the sense that they can be done in a lab.


From time to time there have been "mass sightings-eyewitness accounts"  of the Virgin Mary or these accounts reliable lie the well observed events, such as  ghost that appears to many people at once.  



I would agree that from time to time there have been "mass sightings-eyewitness accounts"  of the Virgin Mary. 


www.bing.com/search?FORM=WLETDF&PC=WLEM&...


 


Feb 18, 2011 -- 9:08AM, Brownowl33 wrote:


If a ghost cannot be caused to appear on command does that mean that all those mediums who hold seances with the dearly departed and hear dead people are frauds? 



 


 


Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:27AM, Brownowl33 wrote:

On the other hand, people who claim to be "psychic" CAN be tested, at least somewhat.  Many of them have been shown to be completely fraudulent (such as Sylvia Brown) or have failed standardized testing.



Many have been found to be completely fraudulent, have any been found to be completly valid? 


I did know that Sylvia Brown was found to be completely fraudulent!   I am shocked, shocked! After all such reasonable men like Montel Williams, Larry King and others had them on their shows.  


Thank God  there are genuine psychics like Uri Geller and Psychic Hecate


 


 

Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:27AM, Brownowl33 wrote:

Likewise, some mythology based on supposedly supernatural events (such as "creationism") have long ago been shown to be false.



Creationism has not been shown to be  false to a Creationist.  


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You





Many seance mediums ARE frauds; they've been caught cheating so many times,  I would hesitate to believe anything they did unless it was done under very, very controlled conditions. Ever notice how so many of them use the same script?  "There's an older woman here bringing roses. Have you ever known an older person who died?  Did their name start with "a?"  Ok, how about "b?"  How about "c?"  And so on. Uri Geller is a fake, too; his "spoon bending" stuff is nothing more than a cheap magic trick.  As for "creationism," well, it doesn't matter what a creationist thinks, it's still not true.  As the old saying goes, "you're entitled to your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to your own facts."  The Earth is billions of years old, was created by natural processes, and people and animals evolved.  That's fact, it's not opinion.  Whether you claim that the Earth is 3000 years old and dinosaurs are jokes put there by Satan, or that the Moon is made from green cheese and inhabited by glittery pink Moon People, you'd still be wrong.  "Creationism" is about as reasonable as insisting that there is no gravity and that the Sun is a giant lightbulb put there by Jesus.  As to Marian apparitions, in many cases I think they're mass hysteria.  In others, there might be some kind of phenomenon, but as to what it is, I don't know.  It would take a lot more than the claims of some religious fanatics (who, invariably, are the ones who see these sorts of thing....often times, these ghosts are "invisible" and appear only to them.....how convenient) to convince me.


For the record, I do think there are legitimate paranormal events; I just don't think they're the showy, tabloid stuff.  The Sylvia Brownes and Uri Gellers of this world are con artists who take the money of grieving and gullible people, but there are mediums who maintain a low profile, charge nothing, and seem to have an actual gift.  The point is, the fact that some things are true doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is, and one has to look at the big picture and not ignore reality (that is, natural processes and science) in favour of some airy-fairy mystical stuff.





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