I suppose that depends on what you mean by science.
If you mean something that can be objectively proven by scientific method, astrology probably isn't a science--because it's very subjective.
But astrology is based on the concept that natural forces affect our lives constantly and in subtle ways--and really, would any scientist disagree with that? They may not necessarily agree with which natural forces and in which ways, but that we're always affected by natural forces is undeniably true.
And if by science you mean truth, if you have your birth chart done and see what it tells you, then yes, probably anyone who's had their birth chart done will say it's true, if the person doing it was even halfway competent. Going by sun sign alone doesn't tell you much, but the chart as a whole certainly does.
I suppose that depends on what you mean by science.
If you mean something that can be objectively proven by scientific method, astrology probably isn't a science
Yes that is what I mean.
"Science (from the Latinscientia, meaning "knowledge") refers in its broadest sense to any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science often refers to a technical art or highly skilled practice.[1]"
But astrology is based on the concept that natural forces affect our lives constantly and in subtle ways--and really, would any scientist disagree with that?
I will not disagree that certain natural forces affect our lives constantly in natural and subtle ways. I do not think that any scientist would disagree with that. For example If a person stays out in the sun without protection for an extended period of time they will get sunburn. Wind, rain and gravity are also natural forces. But they affect everyone, regardless of when they were born, or concieved.
-- They may not necessarily agree with which natural forces and in which ways, but that we're always affected by natural forces is undeniably true.
I think they do agree in the vast majority of cases about how natural forces and in which ways they affect people. No matter who jumps off a fifty story building it is going to affect them regardless of where they were born or concieved and when.
It is my understandingg that claim of astrology is that heavenly bodies such as the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars affects the personality and can be used to make predictions about an individual. It is a matter of dispute among even very compentent(?)-expert astrologers as to wether the time of conception or time of birth is when the chart should be made. It is my understanding the consenus of astologers use time of birth to make a persons's chart.
"Astrology (from Greek ἄστρον, astron, "constellation, star"; and -λογία, -logia, "the study of") is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters. A practitioner of astrology is called an astrologer or an astrologist."
What is the nature of the force exerted by these heavenly bodies?
-- And if by science you mean truth, if you have your birth chart done and see what it tells you, then yes, probably anyone who's had their birth chart done will say it's true,
I would say that anyone who believes in astrology and has there birth chart done would agree that it is accurate.
However I recall an experiment that was done on a group of college students. The professors had asked them for their date and place of birth. A month later he gave them a report saying that it was done by an astrolger and it discribed a vareity of personality traits, based on the information they gave. He asked them if they thought the reports they received accurately described their personalities. Most of them agreed that it did.
The problem is, is that they were all given the exact same report.
My question to you is what is the nature of the force that heavenly bodies have on people that affects their personalites. Is it a natural force like gravity?
if the person doing it was even halfway competent. Going by sun sign alone doesn't tell you much, but the chart as a whole certainly does.
Certainly does what?
Make accurate descriptions of your personality?
Be useful as a guide as to whom you would be happier with in marraige?
If I ask five very expert astrologer to make me a chart, would they accurately describe my personality and be able to make competent predictions about my future?
Someone claims that astrology is not a science because it is impossible to prove its claims false. That since it can't it is a metaphysical theory.
Do you agree?
I disagree about the condition. It would be very easy to disprove astrology by simply reading a chart and, if it didn't work, it would either state outright false information, or information so vague as to be applicable to a wide number of people. On the contrary, while reading the generic horoscopes does fall into the latter category, and while a beginner trying to read a chart would encounter much of the former category, a good astrologer can pinpoint very accurate and specific information about a person that is far too detailed to fall into either of the above scenarios.
On the other hand, there is no known theory, to my knowledge, as to how astrology works. There is much speculation, a good amount of which is rather imaginative, but nothing solid like the theory of gravity or atomic theory. There is actually research going on to try to figure it out, but to my limited knowledge on this, nobody has a proven theory yet.
As to whether or not it is a science or not, good question. It certainly works very effectively, but without a clear understanding of how it functions, I don't think it could be considered a science, yet.
I suppose that depends on what you mean by science.
If you mean something that can be objectively proven by scientific method, astrology probably isn't a science
Yes that is what I mean.
"Science (from the Latinscientia, meaning "knowledge") refers in its broadest sense to any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science often refers to a technical art or highly skilled practice.[1]"
As far as prediction goes, though it does give better odds than sheer guessing, I find that this is not astrology's strength. It is most useful as a psychological tool imo. I've had predictions come to pass with uncanny acccuracy, and other predictions never manifest. But everyone whom I speak with regularly in a group fo educated astrologers swears to its efficacy with regards to how well it describes a person's psychology, their strengths and weaknesses.
But astrology is based on the concept that natural forces affect our lives constantly and in subtle ways--and really, would any scientist disagree with that?
I will not disagree that certain natural forces affect our lives constantly in natural and subtle ways. I do not think that any scientist would disagree with that. For example If a person stays out in the sun without protection for an extended period of time they will get sunburn. Wind, rain and gravity are also natural forces. But they affect everyone, regardless of when they were born, or concieved.
Like I said, we don't know how it works, but is it so far fetched to consider that the season one is born in could affect their psychological outlook? Scorpios, for example, are born at a time when everything in nature is dying and growing colder (autumn)... could this explain why there is a tendency for fascination with death and occult subjects amongst Scorpios? Aries is born in the beginning of spring, when life is sprouting back and warming... when people get active again and start new routines... could this explain the fiesty, innovative and ambitious traits of Aries?
-- They may not necessarily agree with which natural forces and in which ways, but that we're always affected by natural forces is undeniably true.
I think they do agree in the vast majority of cases about how natural forces and in which ways they affect people. No matter who jumps off a fifty story building it is going to affect them regardless of where they were born or concieved and when.
It is my understandingg that claim of astrology is that heavenly bodies such as the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars affects the personality and can be used to make predictions about an individual. It is a matter of dispute among even very compentent(?)-expert astrologers as to wether the time of conception or time of birth is when the chart should be made. It is my understanding the consenus of astologers use time of birth to make a persons's chart.
Predictions, yes, though personally I am more intersted in its psychological efficacy. I have never heard an astrologer claim that the time of conception should be used for making a birth chart... I don't know how one would even know exactly when one is conceived?
"Astrology (from Greek ἄστρον, astron, "constellation, star"; and -λογία, -logia, "the study of") is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters. A practitioner of astrology is called an astrologer or an astrologist."
What is the nature of the force exerted by these heavenly bodies?
We don't know. It might, for all we know, have less to do with the heavenly bodies and more to do with the relative seasons on Earth.
-- And if by science you mean truth, if you have your birth chart done and see what it tells you, then yes, probably anyone who's had their birth chart done will say it's true,
I would say that anyone who believes in astrology and has there birth chart done would agree that it is accurate.
However I recall an experiment that was done on a group of college students. The professors had asked them for their date and place of birth. A month later he gave them a report saying that it was done by an astrolger and it discribed a vareity of personality traits, based on the information they gave. He asked them if they thought the reports they received accurately described their personalities. Most of them agreed that it did.
The problem is, is that they were all given the exact same report.
If a vague set of information is given to a wide group of people, then of course this will be the result. A serious astrologer, however, can provide very specific and detailed information that applies only to you, however. None of this "you will marry in two years" and "you are an extrovert" nonsense that could apply to most people.
My question to you is what is the nature of the force that heavenly bodies have on people that affects their personalites. Is it a natural force like gravity?
Be useful as a guide as to whom you would be happier with in marraige?
You should know that yourself, not read charts to figure it out. :) Seriously though, astrology can help you to see what you look for in a mate, and how they can affect you.
If I ask five very expert astrologer to make me a chart, would they accurately describe my personality and be able to make competent predictions about my future?
I would say that they would all, if worth their weight, provide similar and very specific information about your deeper psychology and personality. As for predictions, I find that sometimes they work really well and sometimes they don't. The problem with predictions is that they try to figure out how a person will respond to any given circumstances coming up going on internally (which is really what a chart shows you), but people can always surprise even the best of us. I also am not a fan of predictions and take them with a grain of salt simply because they can become self-fulfilling prophecies.
Like I said, we don't know how it works, but is it so far fetched to consider that the season one is born in could affect their psychological outlook? Scorpios, for example, are born at a time when everything in nature is dying and growing colder (autumn)... could this explain why there is a tendency for fascination with death and occult subjects amongst Scorpios? Aries is born in the beginning of spring, when life is sprouting back and warming... when people get active again and start new routines... could this explain the fiesty, innovative and ambitious traits of Aries?
Yes... in the northern hemisphere. People born in the southern hemisphere are still Aries if they're born in early to mid April and Scorpio if they're born in early to mid November... and the traits still hold up, don't they?
Not that I disagree with that about natural forces, but season reversal would seem to change things, only it doesn't, does it? I'm pretty sure we've had a discussion on this before....
Like I said, we don't know how it works, but is it so far fetched to consider that the season one is born in could affect their psychological outlook? Scorpios, for example, are born at a time when everything in nature is dying and growing colder (autumn)... could this explain why there is a tendency for fascination with death and occult subjects amongst Scorpios? Aries is born in the beginning of spring, when life is sprouting back and warming... when people get active again and start new routines... could this explain the fiesty, innovative and ambitious traits of Aries?
Yes... in the northern hemisphere. People born in the southern hemisphere are still Aries if they're born in early to mid April and Scorpio if they're born in early to mid November... and the traits still hold up, don't they?
Not that I disagree with that about natural forces, but season reversal would seem to change things, only it doesn't, does it? I'm pretty sure we've had a discussion on this before....
Hey MB, yes I believe we did. That's true to my knowledge, a very curious thing. Guess it isn't seasonal then... who knows. :)
As far as prediction goes, though it does give better odds than sheer guessing, I find that this is not astrology's strength. [/quote
Has there been any independent studies to verify the accuracy of professional astrologers ?
The claims of astrology are:
"Astrology (from Greek ἄστρον, astron, "constellation, star"; and -λογία, -logia, "the study of") is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters.
But everyone whom I speak with regularly in a group for educated astrologers swears to its efficacy with regards to how well it describes a person's psychology, their strengths and weaknesses.
Are you a "professional astrologer" ?
What force or forces from impact on the psychological personality of people?
What exactly is the nature of the education of professional astrologers?
It does not suprise me one bit that professional astrologers swear to its efficacy.
But astrology is based on the concept that natural forces affect our lives constantly and in subtle ways--and really, would any scientist disagree with that?
A scientist would ask, What are the natural forces, and how do affect our lives in subtle ways?
Like I said, we don't know how it works, but is it so far fetched to consider that the season one is born in could affect their psychological outlook? Scorpios, for example, are born at a time when everything in nature is dying and growing colder (autumn)... could this explain why there is a tendency for fascination with death and occult subjects amongst Scorpios? Aries is born in the beginning of spring, when life is sprouting back and warming... when people get active again and start new routines... could this explain the fiesty, innovative and ambitious traits of Aries?
But it is claimed that the astrology works due to the positions of celestial bodies not due to the seasons. I was born on June 13. I am a Gemini. I have an interest in death, the occult, and nature. Now I am not particulary ambitious, but I do know of other Geminis who are, and I know of Aries that are even less ambitious than I am.
I think a more reasonable and scientific explanation for the various personalities are genetics and nurture.
-- They may not necessarily agree with which natural forces and in which ways, but that we're always affected by natural forces is undeniably true.
I think they do agree in the vast majority of cases about how natural forces and in which ways they affect people. No matter who jumps off a fifty story building it is going to affect them regardless of where they were born or concieved and when.
It is my understandingg that claim of astrology is that heavenly bodies such as the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars affects the personality and can be used to make predictions about an individual. It is a matter of dispute among even very compentent(?)-expert astrologers as to wether the time of conception or time of birth is when the chart should be made. It is my understanding the consenus of astologers use time of birth to make a persons's chart.
Predictions, yes, though personally I am more intersted in its psychological efficacy. I have never heard an astrologer claim that the time of conception should be used for making a birth chart... I don't know how one would even know exactly when one is conceived?
"Astrology (from Greek ἄστρον, astron, "constellation, star"; and -λογία, -logia, "the study of") is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters. A practitioner of astrology is called an astrologer or an astrologist."
What is the nature of the force exerted by these heavenly bodies?
We don't know. It might, for all we know, have less to do with the heavenly bodies and more to do with the relative seasons on Earth.[/quote[
Well the effect of the relative seasons seems ALOT more plausible than "celestial bodies". However genetics and nurture seem to me to have a much more plausible explanation in determining a persons personality and future.
My question to you is what is the nature of the force that heavenly bodies have on people that affects their personalites. Is it a natural force like gravity?
If I ask five very expert astrologer to make me a chart, would they accurately describe my personality and be able to make competent predictions about my future?
I would say that they would all, if worth their weight, provide similar and very specific information about your deeper psychology and personality.
There are different schools in astrology. Western, Muslim, Hindu, Chinese etc etc. Do you know if anyone of these is the most accurate in producing very specific information about the deeper personality and pyschology of a person?
As for predictions, I find that sometimes they work really well and sometimes they don't. The problem with predictions is that they try to figure out how a person will respond to any given circumstances coming up going on internally (which is really what a chart shows you), but people can always surprise even the best of us. I also am not a fan of predictions and take them with a grain of salt simply because they can become self-fulfilling prophecies.
I would say that the only time that astrological predictions work is when they do become self-fulfilling prophecies.
I am definetly NOT"postive", "dominant" , or "active". I tend to be "negative", "passive" and "inactive".And while I am not "femine" I would hardly classify my self a "masculine."
Returning to the intial question I posed
"Someone claims that astrology is not a science because it is impossible to prove its claims false. That since it can't it is a metaphysical theory" .
It would appear the anwer is that it not science. Its claims can not be proven to be either true or false.
I do concede that it could be called a science in the broadest meaning of the term science i.e.
"ANY systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science often refers to a technical art or highly skilled practice"
However under this very broad meaning, Palm Reading and Tarot Card readings, as well as other methods of divination would be classified as "science".
It could be described as an "art" or entertainment.
But it is claimed that the astrology works due to the positions of celestial bodies not due to the seasons. I was born on June 13. I am a Gemini. I have an interest in death, the occult, and nature. Now I am not particulary ambitious, but I do know of other Geminis who are, and I know of Aries that are even less ambitious than I am.
I think a more reasonable and scientific explanation for the various personalities are genetics and nurture.
Happy birthday!
Like we've discussed above, it evidently is about the position of the planets rather than the seasons--because sun signs are the same at the same time of year no matter where on the planet you are, but the northern and southern hemispheres have opposite seasons. Your birthday makes you a Gemini whether you were born north or south of the equator, whether it was right before the summer solstice or right before the winter one.
And my thoughts on astrology were much like yours for years. I was born on August 15th, which makes me a Leo--but I'm not outgoing or spontaneous, and not a natural leader, as Leos are supposed to be. I'm cautious, frugal, and introverted. It made more sense to me after I learned that my rising sign is Capricorn--its traits are mostly the direct opposite of Leo's, and your rising sign is what informs the personality you present to the world. And it made even more sense after our resident astrology student here, Kartari, told me that Capricorn rising puts my Leo sun in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio, and gives my sun sign Scorpio traits as well as Leo ones.
So if you were to learn your entire birth chart, not just your sun sign, you may see more about yourself in it. That doesn't necessarily make it a science, but it does mean astrology can tell us some things about ourselves.
Edit: Born at 6:35 am that close to the summer solstice and that far north (I just saw that last part of your post), odds are that your rising sign is Cancer. Off the top of my head, it seems like that would mute the Gemini traits quite a bit. And perhaps having your sun in the twelfth house, which is likely if your rising sign is the one after your sun sign, also does something there? I'm sure Kartari, or someone else well versed in astrology, could tell us more if you're interested. I'm just a raw beginner myself.
Like we've discussed above, it evidently is about the position of the planets rather than the seasons--because sun signs are the same at the same time of year no matter where on the planet you are, but the northern and southern hemispheres have opposite seasons. Your birthday makes you a Gemini whether you were born north or south of the equator, whether it was right before the summer solstice or right before the winter one.
Ok we agree it is the position of the stars and not the seasons. Now I may be mistaken but isn't the phase of the moon different between eastern and western hemipheres?
And my thoughts on astrology were much like yours for years. I was born on August 15th, which makes me a Leo--but I'm not outgoing or spontaneous, and not a natural leader, as Leos are supposed to be. I'm cautious, frugal, and introverted. It made more sense to me after I learned that my rising sign is Capricorn--its traits are mostly the direct opposite of Leo's, and your rising sign is what informs the personality you present to the world. And it made even more sense after our resident astrology student here, Kartari, told me that Capricorn rising puts my Leo sun in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio, and gives my sun sign Scorpio traits as well as Leo ones.
So my sun sign has little or nothing to do with my personality. My rising is more important.
So if you were to learn your entire birth chart, not just your sun sign, you may see more about yourself in it. That doesn't necessarily make it a science, but it does mean astrology can tell us some things about ourselves.
I agree that astrology isn't a science. It does not explain how or why the positions of the stars, moon, etc affects my personality.
Now it is my understanding that some(most?) make natal charts i.e. when I slid down the ol birth canal so to speak.
Others use "conception" charts. Is either one more accurate in predicating personality?
If I count back nine months from June my conception would be in September. Which would make my sun sign Libra or Virgo. I have no idea what my "rising" sign would be.
Edit: Born at 6:35 am that close to the summer solstice and that far north (I just saw that last part of your post), odds are that your rising sign is Cancer. Off the top of my head, it seems like that would mute the Gemini traits quite a bit. And perhaps having your sun in the twelfth house, which is likely if your rising sign is the one after your sun sign, also does something there? I'm sure Kartari, or someone else well versed in astrology, could tell us more if you're interested. I'm just a raw beginner myself.
Now Chinese Atrology is different. The have different signs. Also I think the go by years.
I was born in 1949. My sign would be a Rat. My characteristics and personality would be different.
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