Post Reply
Page 3 of 3  •  Prev 1 2 3
Switch to Forum Live View IS ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE?
5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2010 - 4:31PM #21
Seapearl
Posts: 36

Hello IDBC


Your proposed experiment would work up to a point. 


But you would find it quite difficult to get a group of babies born at exactly the same time and place.  Also, you have to remember that astrological influences are not the only ones that shape us - what about the race and culture into which the child is born?  Then there is the spiritual 'level' of the incarnating soul; an evolved soul will do better at coping with a difficult horoscope than an immature one.


But you would find quite a few similarities.  Probably the best way would be to work with the lives of twins who are born very close in time.


I don't think you can 'prove' astrology, although many people have tried.  But with 40+ years of experience as an astrologer I can only say that I have found that it does work.


best wishes


Seapearl

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 3:01AM #22
Kartari
Posts: 2,165

Feb 1, 2010 -- 3:26PM, IDBC wrote:

Howdy


It is my understanding  that astrology works on the claim that a person's personality can be determined based on the location and time a person was born and that the position of celestial bodies, planets, stars, etc. will have an influence on the life of that person. 


I have thought of a scientific experiment to test the validity of these claims.  


A group of pregnant women, who have similar due dates can be gathered together to give birth to their babies.   All the women have their children at the same place and at the same time.   According to the claim as I understand it all the people born should have either the same or very similar personalities.   All the children should be affected in the same way throughout their lives by the position of celestial bodies.  


At various points in their lives data can be collected to verify the validity of the intial claims made by astrology.   


Would such an experiment be valid? 


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You 



I agree with Seapearl.  It would definitely be a valid test in theory, and though it would be very difficult to do, I would love to see it done.  It would be very important to recognize that astrology's precision is in its mapping of our psychology and in the prediction of internal issues, moreso than predicting external events.  Those not educated in astrology would inevitably botch it and draw false conclusions.  So those performing the experiment should definitely understand astrology very well.  Psychology would be critical too, as well as other fields, particularly anatomy and physiology for example (to properly evaluate all issues and events related to health and health problems).


It is not the case that any two or more people born at exactly the same time and place will inevitably have exactly the same personality.  This does not happen in reality, and astrology mirrors what happens in reality; otherwise, it would be useless.  Neither will these people inevitably have the same exact set of life circumstances, nor make the same exact choices.


Why would they all have different lives and make different choices when their charts are identical?  Same chart or not, they are simply not all predisposed to make the same choices.  Astrology has no means for predicting what people will choose to do given any set of circumstances in our lives; it cannot predict how evolved or mature a person is.  All astrology can do is map our psychology for us, show us at our best and our worst potentials, and present us with certain issues, challenges or lessons that will arise at specific points in time, with a range of potential circumstances that can manifest as a result of them.


One particular type of transit for example would show that the person will be feeling the need for very deep and very intense transformation at a very fundamental psychological level.  Externally, they might get more interested in the occult.  Or they might get more interested in psychology.  Start looking at life more deeply, trying to really understand themselves, their deepest wounds, their darker past.  Sometimes with this transit, the death of a loved one, someone very close, will prod them into reevaluating their life at such a deep level.  Another external possibility is events in the home; anything from dealing with leaky plumbing to an all out move to a new home.  Psychologically, the home is a reflection of our deeper selves, and is (often) where those closest to us live with us.  The only certain outcome of this transit is that the person will undergo either a very deep psychological transformation, likely enduring some level of depression or melancholy along the way, maybe with a healing of a very deep past wound will occur, or they could take a less enlightened path, like becoming overwhelmed with suffering in life and falling into a rather deep depression.  Or they might actually be happier at this time, like if they were melancholy previously and now came to release some of their past pain and are lighter and happier as a result.


Hence the need for psychoanalysis of the people being tested, to see what they are going through emotionally and mentally, not just physically.  Looking at them externally could show a range of things (though in the example above, every one of their external events would fall within the range of being in relation to the home, the family, possible death of those close to them, and a probable shift of mood... and all would experience some of these potentials at more or less the same time, give or take a few months).

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Feb 04, 2010 - 11:06PM #23
ManzanitaBear
Posts: 946

And as we know, twins usually end up with very different personalities. But they have almost the same birth chart. Not exactly the same, since twins are born anywhere from four to twenty minutes apart, typically.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Feb 05, 2010 - 1:02AM #24
Kartari
Posts: 2,165

Feb 4, 2010 -- 11:06PM, ManzanitaBear wrote:

And as we know, twins usually end up with very different personalities. But they have almost the same birth chart. Not exactly the same, since twins are born anywhere from four to twenty minutes apart, typically.



Long time no see MB, how are you? Cool


Right.  Twins can sometimes be pretty similar too, but not always.  They can draw on different aspects of their charts in different ways.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2010 - 5:12PM #25
IDBC
Posts: 4,516

Howdy Katari


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:


Feb 1, 2010 -- 3:26PM, IDBC wrote:

Howdy


It is my understanding  that astrology works on the claim that a person's personality can be determined based on the location and time a person was born and that the position of celestial bodies, planets, stars, etc. will have an influence on the life of that person. 


I have thought of a scientific experiment to test the validity of these claims.  


A group of pregnant women, who have similar due dates can be gathered together to give birth to their babies.   All the women have their children at the same place and at the same time.   According to the claim as I understand it all the people born should have either the same or very similar personalities.   All the children should be affected in the same way throughout their lives by the position of celestial bodies.  


At various points in their lives data can be collected to verify the validity of the intial claims made by astrology.   


Would such an experiment be valid? 


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You 



I agree with Seapearl.  It would definitely be a valid test in theory, and though it would be very difficult to do, I would love to see it done. 



I am just concerned with wether or not it would be a valid test in theory and in practice.  I do agree that it would not be an "easy" test to do.    I think that the suggestion that the addition of twins being added as a control factor would also be a good idea. 


 


 




Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:


It would be very important to recognize that astrology's precision is in its mapping of our psychology and in the prediction of internal issues, moreso than predicting external events. 



Can astrology make accurate predictions of external events?


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

 Those not educated in astrology would inevitably botch it and draw false conclusions.



But those who are educated in astrology would not "botch it or draw false conclusions"?


Perhaps an additional control factor would be to have several well educated astrologers do a chart and see if their predictions agree with each other. 


 

Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

So those performing the experiment should definitely understand astrology very well.  Psychology would be critical too, as well as other fields, particularly anatomy and physiology for example (to properly evaluate all issues and events related to health and health problems).


 


It sounds like the experiment is not going to be practical.  Or at least very, very, very difficult.


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

It is not the case that any two or more people born at exactly the same time and place will inevitably have exactly the same personality.



But they should be very similar. 


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

es not happen in reality, and astrology mirrors what happens in reality; otherwise, it would be useless.  Neither will these people inevitably have the same exact set of life circumstances, nor make the same exact choices.



So astrology is not the only factor in determining a persons personality.  Factors such as nurture and even genetics plays a factor. 


So my question is how big a factor does astrology play in determining a person's personality.


And come to  think of I have no need for astrology to determine my personality, I already know what my personality is already. 


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

Why would they all have different lives and make different choices when their charts are identical? 



Because nurture and genetics will also play a factor.   The question is how much of a factor does being born and at certain place and a certain time play? 


 

Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

chart or not, they are simply not all predisposed to make the same choices. 



 


 Astrology has no means for predicting what people will choose to do given any set of circumstances in our lives; it cannot predict how evolved or mature a person is.  All astrology can do is map our psychology for us, show us at our best and our worst potentials, and present us with certain issues, challenges or lessons that will arise at specific points in time, with a range of potential circumstances that can manifest as a result of them.


One particular type of transit for example would show that the person will be feeling the need for very deep and very intense transformation at a very fundamental psychological level.  Externally, they might get more interested in the occult.  Or they might get more interested in psychology.  Start looking at life more deeply, trying to really understand themselves, their deepest wounds, their darker past.  Sometimes with this transit, the death of a loved one, someone very close, will prod them into reevaluating their life at such a deep level.  Another external possibility is events in the home; anything from dealing with leaky plumbing to an all out move to a new home.  Psychologically, the home is a reflection of our deeper selves, and is (often) where those closest to us live with us.  The only certain outcome of this transit is that the person will undergo either a very deep psychological transformation, likely enduring some level of depression or melancholy along the way, maybe with a healing of a very deep past wound will occur, or they could take a less enlightened path, like becoming overwhelmed with suffering in life and falling into a rather deep depression.  Or they might actually be happier at this time, like if they were melancholy previously and now came to release some of their past pain and are lighter and happier as a result.


Hence the need for psychoanalysis of the people being tested, to see what they are going through emotionally and mentally, not just physically.  Looking at them externally could show a range of things (though in the example above, every one of their external events would fall within the range of being in relation to the home, the family, possible death of those close to them, and a probable shift of mood... and all would experience some of these potentials at more or less the same time, give or take a few months).




It sounds to me like astrology is very limited.  It can't do this, it can't do that.  It sounds like it can only make vague predictions regarding personality, and that even those are dependent on nurture and genetics.  


Can astrology make precise predictions that are not influenced by nurture or genetics? 


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You Smile

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Feb 09, 2010 - 12:10PM #26
Kartari
Posts: 2,165

Feb 6, 2010 -- 5:12PM, IDBC wrote:


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

It would be very important to recognize that astrology's precision is in its mapping of our psychology and in the prediction of internal issues, moreso than predicting external events. 



Can astrology make accurate predictions of external events?



Yes.


Some astrologers are big on making specific, external predictions, and I know a number of people who swear by them.  I've never had a 100% success rate with those readings myself, however.  Maybe 60% of those predictions were accurate enough to specifically fit with what was said (which still beats the odds, considering that if astrology did not work, the astrologer's predictions would basically be random guessing).  I am very discerning, so something really has to specifically fit and not be vague for me to say it was in fact an accurate prediction.


Other astrologers (like myself) focus more on what's going on inside a person's mind, and the external events, while reflecting the inner processes, are not as easy to specifically predict.  A range of possible external events are taken into account here, and the specific outcome is determined by the choices the person makes.  This latter camp is referred to as Evolutionary Astrology, and sees the discrepancy in external predictions made by the fatalistic astrologers as being due to not taking into account the freedom we have to choose differently and change ourselves.  We are born with certain personalities and predispositions, but we can change them as we become more aware.  In these terms, at predicting my psychology and the changing moods and inner themes of what's going on at any given time, astrology has been 100% accurate in my many years of experience.


In all honesty, I could write books about the subject.  But many books have already been written.  If you are really interested, you must check out Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky" and then "The Changing Sky" for a good basic tutorial, and also check out Robert Hand's "Planets in Transit" to see what kinds of predictions can be made, and what I mean, by virtue of example, of what inner processes can be predicted and how they can manifest outwardly.


Feb 6, 2010 -- 5:12PM, IDBC wrote:


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

 Those not educated in astrology would inevitably botch it and draw false conclusions.



But those who are educated in astrology would not "botch it or draw false conclusions"?



My point is that the experiment would need people actually qualified in astrology.


Feb 6, 2010 -- 5:12PM, IDBC wrote:

Perhaps an additional control factor would be to have several well educated astrologers do a chart and see if their predictions agree with each other.



That would be a very good idea.  This has been done before, though not to my knowledge in an actual study.


Feb 6, 2010 -- 5:12PM, IDBC wrote:


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

So those performing the experiment should definitely understand astrology very well.  Psychology would be critical too, as well as other fields, particularly anatomy and physiology for example (to properly evaluate all issues and events related to health and health problems).


 


It sounds like the experiment is not going to be practical.  Or at least very, very, very difficult.



Well, we could stick with just the psychoanalysis aspects as a minimum.  Some astrologers exist with degrees in psychology, actually.  To be all-inclusive though, other fields, health topics in particular, would need to be measured as well.


Feb 6, 2010 -- 5:12PM, IDBC wrote:


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

It is not the case that any two or more people born at exactly the same time and place will inevitably have exactly the same personality.



But they should be very similar.



Actually, you'd be surprised.  This might sound contradictory.  But the thing is, we can predict the basic psychology of twins, but not their intelligence or rate of maturity.  Let's say as an extreme example that one set of twins includes one who is gifted and another who suffers from Downs Syndrome.  Certain similarities will exist and persist in their personalities and general moods.  But will they be the same person?  No.  Let's say they are both Geminis, with a strong public influence and a desire for recognition (e.g. 10th house stelliums and Leo rising).  The gifted twin might go on to become an author or a teacher of some renown in the world.  The other twin might not have that kind of success, but he's independent enough to have one of those jobs at a very popular store where he greets people when they come in and when they leave, so he would still get to know a lot of people.  This is an example of how two people with identical charts can, on the one hand, be very different, and on the other hand, share the same themes (e.g. they both enjoy communicating in one form or another, and with many people, and both managed to find themselves in public positions where they are recognized by many).


Feb 6, 2010 -- 5:12PM, IDBC wrote:


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

es not happen in reality, and astrology mirrors what happens in reality; otherwise, it would be useless.  Neither will these people inevitably have the same exact set of life circumstances, nor make the same exact choices.



So astrology is not the only factor in determining a persons personality.  Factors such as nurture and even genetics plays a factor. 


So my question is how big a factor does astrology play in determining a person's personality.



Astrology maps the personality accurately, and even takes genetics into account.  Nurturing can be independent of astrology, however.  The thing is, from an external point of view, astrology presents us with certain circumstances and a range of possibilities for dealing with them (generally, dealing with it maturely, and dealing with it immaturely).  The choices we make here can alter how the external events manifest.


Let's use an analogy.  Suppose you know that a meteoroid is heading for Earth that could devastate all life.  Suppose we have two technologies at out disposal: one has a 50% chance of altering its course and averting the Earth entirely, the other choice will blow up the meteoroid but it will fragment and do less but still substantial damage.  We could also do nothing and likely all die.


Astrology cannot really predict such an event (though it can predict times of transformation and likely death).  But using this analogy as symbolism for our personal lives, we could say that astrology would be able to tell us that a meteoroid is coming in advance, and it will tell us our best and worst options for dealing with it.  That's all.  Which choice we make is up to us.  And which way the 50% chance option will go might not be accurately predicted.


Feb 6, 2010 -- 5:12PM, IDBC wrote:

And come to  think of I have no need for astrology to determine my personality, I already know what my personality is already.



Good.  Astrology is not necessary for knowing who you are, you can find out the long way (by living and looking at yourself deeply), or by psychoanalysis too.


Feb 6, 2010 -- 5:12PM, IDBC wrote:


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:


Feb 3, 2010 -- 3:01AM, Kartari wrote:

chart or not, they are simply not all predisposed to make the same choices. 



Astrology has no means for predicting what people will choose to do given any set of circumstances in our lives; it cannot predict how evolved or mature a person is.  All astrology can do is map our psychology for us, show us at our best and our worst potentials, and present us with certain issues, challenges or lessons that will arise at specific points in time, with a range of potential circumstances that can manifest as a result of them.


One particular type of transit for example would show that the person will be feeling the need for very deep and very intense transformation at a very fundamental psychological level.  Externally, they might get more interested in the occult.  Or they might get more interested in psychology.  Start looking at life more deeply, trying to really understand themselves, their deepest wounds, their darker past.  Sometimes with this transit, the death of a loved one, someone very close, will prod them into reevaluating their life at such a deep level.  Another external possibility is events in the home; anything from dealing with leaky plumbing to an all out move to a new home.  Psychologically, the home is a reflection of our deeper selves, and is (often) where those closest to us live with us.  The only certain outcome of this transit is that the person will undergo either a very deep psychological transformation, likely enduring some level of depression or melancholy along the way, maybe with a healing of a very deep past wound will occur, or they could take a less enlightened path, like becoming overwhelmed with suffering in life and falling into a rather deep depression.  Or they might actually be happier at this time, like if they were melancholy previously and now came to release some of their past pain and are lighter and happier as a result.


Hence the need for psychoanalysis of the people being tested, to see what they are going through emotionally and mentally, not just physically.  Looking at them externally could show a range of things (though in the example above, every one of their external events would fall within the range of being in relation to the home, the family, possible death of those close to them, and a probable shift of mood... and all would experience some of these potentials at more or less the same time, give or take a few months).



It sounds to me like astrology is very limited.  It can't do this, it can't do that.  It sounds like it can only make vague predictions regarding personality, and that even those are dependent on nurture and genetics.


Can astrology make precise predictions that are not influenced by nurture or genetics?



Maybe I'm not explaining it as articulately as possible then.  It is not limited when dealing with predicting a person's psychology, and with the issues they will face internally throughout their lives.  It can show us what will happen at our best and at our worst, so a range of possible outcomes must therefore be predicted instead of only one specific outcome being possible (which would suggest fatalism).  Some astrologers do in fact predict specific outcomes, but they are basically guessing how mature the person is and what they will choose to do, as well as relying on their basic psychology, so they are not  in my experience 100% accurate, more like maybe 60% to my experience.


I think you'd honestly be better off reading some books by experts before making judgments about it either way.  Try the books I mentioned earlier by Steven Forrest and Robert Hand.  Other good books are out there too (Howard Sasportas is another favorite author of mine, The Gods of Change is a great intermediate-advanced level read), but try these out first.


Feb 6, 2010 -- 5:12PM, IDBC wrote:

Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You



Btw, your tagline is so strongly Gemini I can't help but take notice!  Both Gemini and Virgo are ruled by Mercury, which symbolizes logic and rationalism, as well as commuication.  Pure Gemini is the eternal skeptic, the questioner, and believes nothing without sufficient evidence.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 3 of 3  •  Prev 1 2 3
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook