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Switch to Forum Live View IS ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE?
5 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2009 - 1:38AM #11
Kartari
Posts: 2,170

Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


Howdy Katari




Hi. :)


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 6, 2009 -- 12:04PM, Kartari wrote:


 



 


As far as prediction goes, though it does give better odds than sheer guessing, I find that this is not astrology's strength.




Has there been any independent studies to verify the accuracy of professional astrologers ?




I have honestly not investigated this very much (had I more time I definitely would).  Astrology has proven itself to me by its accuracy over the years.


But I do know that astrological research has been going on for some time.  Check out my Astrology Resources topic here at bnet.  Also, Steven Forrest is a famed astrologer who runs Kepler College, a relatively new college, the first dedicated to astrological studies, where people might be researching astrology.  Perhaps his website (www.stevenforrest.com) or his college's site (www.kepler.edu) reveal more info.


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


The claims of astrology are:


"Astrology (from Greek ἄστρον, astron, "constellation, star"; and -λογία, -logia, "the study of") is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters.




Correct.  I guess it would need to be regarded as belief since, to my knowledge at least, there is no real evidence for how astrology works.  The only evidence I know of is in the accuracy of its practice.


You walk through life not believing in psychics.  One day, you meet someone who is psychic and every day she tells you something specific about yourself or someone else that hasn't happened yet that comes to pass.  Coincidence?  Perhaps the first time... perhaps the second time... but after the tenth or hundredth time, you believe she really is psychic.  Do you understand how psychic abilities work.  No.  Does that mean it doesn't work?  No, it obviously does work from your experience.


I've been studying astrology for around ten years now and I have yet to find a single person that does not precisely match their birth chart (I've studied perhaps a few hundred).


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 6, 2009 -- 12:04PM, Kartari wrote:


It is most useful as a psychological tool imo.




Can you explain how the relative positions of celestial bodies affect the personality of people?


What is the natural force of celestial that impacts on personality? 


Is gravity, or radiation in the form of heat or light?




No, I don't know why it works.  I am curious to know, but to my knowledge we remain in the dark as to how or why it works.  All I know is that in my experience, and in the experience of those I study with, it works quite accurately.


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 6, 2009 -- 12:04PM, Kartari wrote:


I've had predictions come to pass with uncanny acccuracy, and other predictions never manifest.




Why did you "other predictions never manifest?"




Astrology is what you could call a psychological road map that details your inner journey over a lifetime.  The natal or birth chart tells us who we were at our birth.  But people grow and change with life's experiences.  Astrology accounts for this by predicting the types and timings of all inner circumstances that will prod us to grow and adapt with what are called transits.


The problem with making predictions of external events, however, lies in the fact that external events are not directly predictable by astrology; only "inner events" are predicted by astrology.  Many astrologers try to translate their best guesses of how those inner events will unfold, and they are more accurate than not to my knowledge.  But the problem is that this necessitates assuming that a person will make certain choices.  Knowing the natal chart does provide an astrologer with deep insight into a person's psychology, thus lending to improving the odds of guessing how they will choose to handle whatever comes up.  But this approach fails to completely respect the fact that people not only make their own choices, but can change and grow as they mature, and can and do surprise even the most insightful of us.


I rarely use astrology to predict my own future.  I actually look to it whenever I am feeling down or like I'm not dealing with life as well as I can be.  I always spot what's going on and, after recognizing what the transits mean, it hits home and my life improves if I follow its wisdom (which I don't always do, and I suffer for it).


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 6, 2009 -- 12:04PM, Kartari wrote:


But everyone whom I speak with regularly in a group for educated astrologers swears to its efficacy with regards to how well it describes a person's psychology, their strengths and weaknesses.




Are you a "professional astrologer"  ?




No, I am just a very interested student.  Being a pro requires a good technical ability which i have in abundance, but also a very penetrating insight which I seek to improve (iow I don't feel I'm exceptional at it, but I do pick up very well enough).


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


What force or forces from impact on the psychological personality of people?




Again, that is beyond my knowledge.


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


What exactly is the nature of the education of professional astrologers?




It varies from I guess maybe high school to PhD.  It requires knowledge of high school level mathematics, including trigonometry and logarithms, though computer programs now cover the majority of the math for us (some basic trigonometry is still required).  Most pros are likely very familiar with "new agey" stuff like metaphysics and other occult topics.  A number of pros are also educated in other more "serious" fields, such as psychology, medicine and mythology, and specialize in studying astrology from those perspectives.  In more recent years, professional astrologer certification has emerged, and a number of private institutions and at least one accredited college offers programs for certification.


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


It does not suprise me one bit that professional astrologers swear to its efficacy.




:)  Look, I am a very skeptical person too, believe it or not.  I'm an agnostic when it comes to religion.  I do not buy into anything that doesn't make rational sense.  Astrology proved itself to me many years ago when my friend at the time started questioning me about my birth date and did my chart and started telling me about myself.  I was intrigued by astrology at the time, but I did not believe in it, nor did I understand very much of it at all.  I recognized the very strong similarities with what she told me as compared to my past experiences which were done before I knew anything about astrology or had any invested interest in it.  I was skeptical at the time, but my skepticism was defeated in time by evidence in the form of its effective practice.


In fact, I still remained a little skeptical because she actually made a mistake in making my chart, and it took a year before we realized her error.  She gave me a Libra ascendant incorrectly, and we both were a bit puzzled since that didn't quite fit me.  We both recognized that I was a more intense fellow than that would imply, and while I'm a very nice person, I do tend to scare people a little upon first impressions (and that's a fact... my nickname in high school in fact was "Death", lol).  Lo and behold, we discovered I had Scorpio rising, which makes far more sense.  So it's not like we tried to fit the chart on top of who I really am, as I was quite aware of who I was and knew that this part of the chart did NOT fit me well at all until we later corrected it.


One day years ago, we looked back to the transits that occurred when I had just turned 14 years old.  I didn't tell her why (I had gotten a very life changing condition, severe tinnitus or ringing in the ears, right after my 14th birthday, that has persisted to the present day), so the only thing she knew beforehand about that specific date was that I apparently had something interesting happen to me then.  She specifically told me that due to the transits going on then, they pointed to a "life changing wound" concerning "trauma to my head" and "communication".  The possibility of "hospitalization or psychological therapy" was also indicated, as "mental breakdown or even insanity" were extreme possibilities.  I did not undergo hospitalization or treatment, but I honestly really could have used all the help I could get (long story why I didn't, but I was in fact suicidal for a while... see how our choices make a difference in terms of the external circumstances, but the "inner event" of "a psychological challenge or trauma concerning communication and the head" nonetheless occurs?  It could have also fit her description if I busted my jaw too, or if something happened to my voice, but you have to admit that's pretty damn specific considering she could have told me it involved "my legs" or "transportation" or "losing my job" or "someone dying" or a number of other things unrelated to what actually happened, or she could have picked up nothing much at all and yet a serious event was picked up).


When ONE such incidence like the above paragraph occurs to you, you could say, "Wow, that's impressive, but it could just be a coincidence".  But when you see the same level of accuracy occur EVERY time you deeply study an issue for ten years...


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


May 26, 2009 -- 12:45AM, ManzanitaBear wrote:


Like I said, we don't know how it works, but is it so far fetched to consider that the season one is born in could affect their psychological outlook?  Scorpios, for example, are born at a time when everything in nature is dying and growing colder (autumn)... could this explain why there is a tendency for fascination with death and occult subjects amongst Scorpios?  Aries is born in the beginning of spring, when life is sprouting back and warming... when people get active again and start new routines... could this explain the fiesty, innovative and ambitious traits of Aries?




But it is claimed that the astrology works due to the positions of celestial bodies not due to the seasons.




Yes, MB corrected me on the above paragraph... the truth is we don't know how it works (afaik), so it could be that the planets are just markers or timers, with something else going on.  Or maybe it really is something to do with the planets, maybe quantum physics will reveal something.  Who knows?


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


I was born on June 13.   I am a Gemini.   I have an interest in death, the occult, and nature.  Now I am not particulary ambitious, but I do know of other Geminis who are, and I know of Aries that are even less ambitious than I am. 


I think a more reasonable and scientific explanation for the various personalities are genetics and nurture. 




Sun signs alone are no way to judge the entirety of the complex human psychology.  For that, we must explore the entire natal chart, and incorporate the transit chart for present and future issues.  Being a Gemini, this would explain your intellectual, questioning approach to the subject matter.  The subjects of death and the occult are in the domain of Scorpio, the planet Pluto and the 8th House... so I would bet you have at least one or two of these very strong in your natal chart.  If you have Gemini + Scorpio both strong in you, research, information gathering and investigation would likely be important to you.  Geminis are generally known for their high energy, though not necessarily ambition without other factors involved.  You could have an Aries with a lot of other factors that ground and make him or her more interested in stability than grand ventures (e.g. perhaps a lot of Taurus)... or make them less interested in material ambitions and more interested in fantasy or spiritual matters (e.g. strong Pisces influence)... it all comes down to reading an entire chart, and not just a sun sign, to accurately describe anyone for the individual they are.


 


------------------


I am sorry to cut this short, but I must get to bed for work tomorrow... I'll return to answer the remaining questions soon as I can. :)

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2009 - 9:10PM #12
Idbc
Posts: 4,597

Howdy Katari


Jun 13, 2009 -- 1:38AM, Kartari wrote:


 I have honestly not investigated this very much (had I more time I definitely would).  Astrology has proven itself to me by its accuracy over the years.



Has it proven itself to be accurate to people who do not believe in astrology as a "science"?


Jun 13, 2009 -- 1:38AM, Kartari wrote:

But I do know that astrological research has been going on for some time. 



Reading the entrails of dead animals has also been going on a long time. 


Jun 13, 2009 -- 1:38AM, Kartari wrote:

 Check out my Astrology Resources topic here at bnet.  Also, Steven Forrest is a famed astrologer who runs Kepler College, a relatively new college, the first dedicated to astrological studies, where people might be researching astrology.  Perhaps his website (www.stevenforrest.com) or his college's site (www.kepler.edu) reveal more info.



I tried a couple of times to link to www.stevenforret.com but his site is undergoing an update.   It is supposed to be ready in 15 mins.  It is 8PM now.


I looked at www.kepler.edu and it is  an unaccredited college devoted primarly to the astrological "sciences(?)".


Being a skeptic I am......leery of biased sites.   I mean if I wanted to learn about the Catholic Church I would be foolish to go only to the Roman Catholic Church link to learn the truth. 


I asked the internet goddess about kepler college


   ht


[edit] Criticism and controversy


John Silber, the rather 'hard line' & controversial chancellor of Boston University wrote, "The promoters of Kepler College have honored Kepler not for his strength but for his weakness, as if a society advocating drunkenness named a school for Ernest Hemingway."[10] Silber noted, "The fact is that astrology, whether judged by its theory or its practice, is bunkum. In a free society there is no reason to prevent those who wish to learn nonsense from finding teachers who want to make money peddling nonsense. But it is inexcusable for the government to certify teachers of nonsense as competent or to authorize - that is, endorse - the granting of degrees in nonsense."[11] The vice provost for research at the University of Washington, Alvin Kwiram, called the school "ludicrous", saying, "If I set up a college of tae kwon do, would they approve it? ... What if we had a college of quack medicine?"[12]


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_College


 


 


 


I never heard of Steven Forrest until you mentioned him.  But then I am not....into astrology.


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


The claims of astrology are:


"Astrology (from Greek ἄστρον, astron, "constellation, star"; and -λογία, -logia, "the study of") is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters.


Correct.  I guess it would need to be regarded as belief since, to my knowledge at least, there is no real evidence for how astrology works.  The only evidence I know of is in the accuracy of its practice.



So if it is to be regarded as a "belief"  and no "real" evidence is avaible for how it works it would seem to be more of a......religion or art than a science. 


Has its accuracy been independently verified?


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

You walk through life not believing in psychics.  One day, you meet someone who is psychic and every day she tells you something specific about yourself or someone else that hasn't happened yet that comes to pass.  Coincidence?  Perhaps the first time... perhaps the second time... but after the tenth or hundredth time, you believe she really is psychic. 



Are astrologers psychics?   What does astrology have to do with being a pyschic abilities?


 Now I am sixty years old. I have never met a.....real psychic.  If I met someone who knew something was going to happen to me and proved it by correctly predicting events a hundred times then I would believe in pyschic clairvonce. 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

 Do you understand how psychic abilities work.  No.  Does that mean it doesn't work?  No, it obviously does work from your experience.



I no more believe in psychic abilites than I do in astrology.   I have not seen either to be valid in my experince.   


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

I've been studying astrology for around ten years now and I have yet to find a single person that does not precisely match their birth chart (I've studied perhaps a few hundred).



Show me.  06/13/1949.  6:35 AM NYC.


 


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


 No, I don't know why it works.  I am curious to know, but to my knowledge we remain in the dark as to how or why it works.  All I know is that in my experience, and in the experience of those I study with, it works quite accurately.



That has not been my experience.  


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 6, 2009 -- 12:04PM, Kartari wrote:


I've had predictions come to pass with uncanny acccuracy, and other predictions never manifest.




Make me an uncannaly accurate prediction. 


 


Why did you "other predictions never manifest?"




Astrology is what you could call a psychological road map that details your inner journey over a lifetime.  The natal or birth chart tells us who we were at our birth.  But people grow and change with life's experiences.  Astrology accounts for this by predicting the types and timings of all inner circumstances that will prod us to grow and adapt with what are called transits.


The problem with making predictions of external events, however, lies in the fact that external events are not directly predictable by astrology; only "inner events" are predicted by astrology.  Many astrologers try to translate their best guesses of how those inner events will unfold, and they are more accurate than not to my knowledge.  But the problem is that this necessitates assuming that a person will make certain choices.  Knowing the natal chart does provide an astrologer with deep insight into a person's psychology, thus lending to improving the odds of guessing how they will choose to handle whatever comes up.  But this approach fails to completely respect the fact that people not only make their own choices, but can change and grow as they mature, and can and do surprise even the most insightful of us.



 


I rarely use astrology to predict my own future.  I actually look to it whenever I am feeling down or like I'm not dealing with life as well as I can be.  I always spot what's going on and, after recognizing what the transits mean, it hits home and my life improves if I follow its wisdom (which I don't always do, and I suffer for it).


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


 


But everyone whom I speak with regularly in a group for educated astrologers swears to its efficacy with regards to how well it describes a person's psychology, their strengths and weaknesses.



Of course educated professional astrologers are going to swear to its efficacy. 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

Are you a "professional astrologer"  ?


 


No, I am just a very interested student.  Being a pro requires a good technical ability which i have in abundance, but also a very penetrating insight which I seek to improve (iow I don't feel I'm exceptional at it, but I do pick up very well enough).



 


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


What force or forces from impact on the psychological personality of people?




Again, that is beyond my knowledge.


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


What exactly is the nature of the education of professional astrologers?




It varies from I guess maybe high school to PhD.  It requires knowledge of high school level mathematics, including trigonometry and logarithms, though computer programs now cover the majority of the math for us (some basic trigonometry is still required).  Most pros are likely very familiar with "new agey" stuff like metaphysics and other occult topics.  A number of pros are also educated in other more "serious" fields, such as psychology, medicine and mythology, and specialize in studying astrology from those perspectives.  In more recent years, professional astrologer certification has emerged, and a number of private institutions and at least one accredited college offers programs for certification.



Which "accredited" college offers a degree certification in astrology?


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


It does not suprise me one bit that professional astrologers swear to its efficacy.




:)  Look, I am a very skeptical person too, believe it or not.  I'm an agnostic when it comes to religion.  I do not buy into anything that doesn't make rational sense.



Make rational sense out of astrology. 


 


 


  Astrology proved itself to me many years ago when my friend at the time started questioning me about my birth date and did my chart and started telling me about myself.  I was intrigued by astrology at the time, but I did not believe in it, nor did I understand very much of it at all.  I recognized the very strong similarities with what she told me as compared to my past experiences which were done before I knew anything about astrology or had any invested interest in it.  I was skeptical at the time, but my skepticism was defeated in time by evidence in the form of its effective practice.


In fact, I still remained a little skeptical because she actually made a mistake in making my chart, and it took a year before we realized her error.  She gave me a Libra ascendant incorrectly, and we both were a bit puzzled since that didn't quite fit me.  We both recognized that I was a more intense fellow than that would imply, and while I'm a very nice person, I do tend to scare people a little upon first impressions (and that's a fact... my nickname in high school in fact was "Death", lol).  Lo and behold, we discovered I had Scorpio rising, which makes far more sense.  So it's not like we tried to fit the chart on top of who I really am, as I was quite aware of who I was and knew that this part of the chart did NOT fit me well at all until we later corrected it.


One day years ago, we looked back to the transits that occurred when I had just turned 14 years old.  I didn't tell her why (I had gotten a very life changing condition, severe tinnitus or ringing in the ears, right after my 14th birthday, that has persisted to the present day), so the only thing she knew beforehand about that specific date was that I apparently had something interesting happen to me then.  She specifically told me that due to the transits going on then, they pointed to a "life changing wound" concerning "trauma to my head" and "communication".  The possibility of "hospitalization or psychological therapy" was also indicated, as "mental breakdown or even insanity" were extreme possibilities.  I did not undergo hospitalization or treatment, but I honestly really could have used all the help I could get (long story why I didn't, but I was in fact suicidal for a while... see how our choices make a difference in terms of the external circumstances, but the "inner event" of "a psychological challenge or trauma concerning communication and the head" nonetheless occurs?  It could have also fit her description if I busted my jaw too, or if something happened to my voice, but you have to admit that's pretty damn specific considering she could have told me it involved "my legs" or "transportation" or "losing my job" or "someone dying" or a number of other things unrelated to what actually happened, or she could have picked up nothing much at all and yet a serious event was picked up).


When ONE such incidence like the above paragraph occurs to you, you could say, "Wow, that's impressive, but it could just be a coincidence".  But when you see the same level of accuracy occur EVERY time you deeply study an issue for ten years...


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


May 26, 2009 -- 12:45AM, ManzanitaBear wrote:


Like I said, we don't know how it works, but is it so far fetched to consider that the season one is born in could affect their psychological outlook?  Scorpios, for example, are born at a time when everything in nature is dying and growing colder (autumn)... could this explain why there is a tendency for fascination with death and occult subjects amongst Scorpios?  Aries is born in the beginning of spring, when life is sprouting back and warming... when people get active again and start new routines... could this explain the fiesty, innovative and ambitious traits of Aries?




But it is claimed that the astrology works due to the positions of celestial bodies not due to the seasons.




Yes, MB corrected me on the above paragraph... the truth is we don't know how it works (afaik), so it could be that the planets are just markers or timers, with something else going on.  Or maybe it really is something to do with the planets, maybe quantum physics will reveal something.  Who knows?



Apparently no one knows. 


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


I was born on June 13.   I am a Gemini.   I have an interest in death, the occult, and nature.  Now I am not particulary ambitious, but I do know of other Geminis who are, and I know of Aries that are even less ambitious than I am. 


I think a more reasonable and scientific explanation for the various personalities are genetics and nurture. 


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

Sun signs alone are no way to judge the entirety of the complex human psychology.  For that, we must explore the entire natal chart, and incorporate the transit chart for present and future issues.  Being a Gemini, this would explain your intellectual, questioning approach to the subject matter.  The subjects of death and the occult are in the domain of Scorpio, the planet Pluto and the 8th House... so I would bet you have at least one or two of these very strong in your natal chart.  If you have Gemini + Scorpio both strong in you, research, information gathering and investigation would likely be important to you.  Geminis are generally known for their high energy, though not necessarily ambition without other factors involved.  You could have an Aries with a lot of other factors that ground and make him or her more interested in stability than grand ventures (e.g. perhaps a lot of Taurus)... or make them less interested in material ambitions and more interested in fantasy or spiritual matters (e.g. strong Pisces influence)... it all comes down to reading an entire chart, and not just a sun sign, to accurately describe anyone for the individual they are.



Well it is my bedtime also.  


 


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2009 - 11:46PM #13
Kartari
Posts: 2,170

Hi again,


Okay I'm back for some more...


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

How does the "sun sign"  affect the personality and future of people?


How does the "moon sign" affect the personality and future of people? 


How does the "sun sign" and  "moon sign"  together "certainly"  produce a more accurate chart in predicating the future of a person?



This is really a very involved subject matter, but in brief...


The sun represents a person's ego identity, whereas the moon represents a person's emotional nature.  I should also mention a third equally important factor, the Ascendant, which represents a person's "mask" or how they first come across to people.  Together, these three form what is called the primal triad, and represent a starting point from which to base the remainder of the chart upon (the rest of the chart being: house placements, the other eight planets (including Pluto), and aspects between the planets and luminaries (sun and moon)).


Combining the sun and moon will be more accurate than the sun alone, and combining the ascendant with the sun and moon will be more accurate still.  You could still be off though if you don't take the whole chart into account (which is a laborous process, though gifted pros can really do it fairly quickly).  Each piece of the chart is a critical piece of the puzzle of who a person is, so to get the most accurate picture, you must put the entire puzzle together.


As for the future, we get into what are called transits, which is the positioning of the planets and luminaries in each person's chart in the present moment (as opposed to the natal chart done at birth).  The transits identify the issues going on now, and can be examined at future dates for predictions, as well as at any point in the person's past.


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


May 26, 2009 -- 12:12PM, Idbc wrote:

 Seriously though, astrology can help you to see what you look for in a mate, and how they can affect you.


 


How can astrology do that? 


Has there been any evidence to support the claim that using astrology as a guide is a reliable guide to picking a mate?



It's been my experience that astrology accurately describes the types of people we get involved with, and the typical strengths and issues we tend to have with them.  Many of us are or become aware of our tendencies in this regard.  Astrology simply reflects this.


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


May 26, 2009 -- 12:12PM, Idbc wrote:

If I ask five very expert astrologer to make me a chart, would they accurately describe my personality and be able to make competent predictions about my future?



May 26, 2009 -- 12:12PM, Idbc wrote:

 I would say that they would all, if worth their weight, provide similar and very specific information about your deeper psychology and personality. 



There are different schools in astrology. Western, Muslim, Hindu, Chinese etc etc.  Do you know if anyone of these is the most  accurate in producing very specific information about the deeper personality and pyschology of a person?



I am only very familiar with Western astrology, so I'd say go with that because it works for me. :)


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


May 26, 2009 -- 12:12PM, Idbc wrote:

  As for predictions, I find that sometimes they work really well and sometimes they don't.  The problem with predictions is that they try to figure out how a person will respond to any given circumstances coming up going on internally (which is really what a chart shows you), but people can always surprise even the best of us.  I also am not a fan of predictions and take them with a grain of salt simply because they can become self-fulfilling prophecies.


 


I would say that the only time that astrological predictions work is when they do become self-fulfilling prophecies.



I agree that external predictions don't always work, but in my experience, there are always underlying issues that do come up which can be accurately predicted.


Have you had any experience with astrologers before?


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

Fair enough.  Now it is my understanding that there are two divisions of "western astrology" . 


Sun Sign astrology and Western sidreal astrology.  


Which of these are you most familar with?



You probably mean to say Tropical (geocentric) or Sidereal (sun-centered).  I use Tropical astrology.


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

As I stated before I am a Gemini, born 06/13/1949 in the Capital of the World aka NYC at appox 6:35 AM. 


According to:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_(astrology)


Gemini is considered a "masculine", positive (extrovert) sign.


I am definetly NOT an extrovert.  I tend to be much more an introvert than an extrovert. 


"In astrology, a positive, dominant, active, yang, diurnal or masculine sign refers to any of the six odd-numbered signs of the zodiac: Aries, Gemini, Leo, Libra, Sagittarius or Aquarius."


I am definetly NOT  "postive", "dominant" ,  or "active".   I tend to be "negative", "passive" and "inactive".  And while I am not "femine"  I would hardly classify my self a "masculine."


 Returning to  the intial question I posed


"Someone claims that astrology is not a science because it is impossible  to prove its claims false.   That since it can't it is a metaphysical theory" .


It would appear the anwer is that it not science.   Its claims can not be proven to be either true or false.


I do concede that it could be called a science in the broadest meaning of the term science i.e.


"ANY systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science often refers to a technical art or highly skilled practice


However under this very broad meaning, Palm Reading and Tarot Card readings, as well as other methods of divination would be classified as "science".


It could be described as an "art" or entertainment. 


 


 Modern astrologers define astrology as a symbolic language, an art form, or a form of divination.


Scientists now label astrology a pseudoscience or superstition.[9][10][11][12]


Have A Thinking Day !



Like I said, you can't go by the sun sign alone.  The adjectives "positive", "extrovert" and "active" describe the pure sign Gemini (e.g. the abstraction of Gemini), not necessarily any individual Gemini human being; to describe a specific human being, look to the entire chart.  An astrologer's job is to take the abstract signs, focus them into the planets and luminaries, as well as house placements, then examine their aspects with one another and come up with a cohesive whole personality from that... a very daunting task.  But I will say this: a Gemini sun sign indicates a perceptually and intellectually oriented person (e.g. I'll believe it if I see it and/or it makes sense mentally). :)


I'll look into your chart more deeply, though to give you a full reading would take me several hours of work and I am honestly pretty busy... not to mention the fact that astrologers typically charge for that.  I'll do what I can though and will return with at least a basic synopsis.  If you're willing to take a small financial risk though, try out a few astrologers and see how accurate their readings are.  Unfortunately, it's hard to know without a referral which astrologers are the really great ones.  I do know for a fact that Steven Forrest is exceptional, and he will send you a reading on casette (or probably CD/mp3 these days) if you can't visit him in California, but he charges a small fortune (around $250 the last time I checked... $50 to $100 is more typical).

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2009 - 12:10AM #14
Kartari
Posts: 2,170

Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:

Howdy Katari


Jun 13, 2009 -- 1:38AM, Kartari wrote:

I have honestly not investigated this very much (had I more time I definitely would).  Astrology has proven itself to me by its accuracy over the years.



Has it proven itself to be accurate to people who do not believe in astrology as a "science"?



I didn't believe in it at first, and I'm sure there are others too.


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 13, 2009 -- 1:38AM, Kartari wrote:

But I do know that astrological research has been going on for some time. 



Reading the entrails of dead animals has also been going on a long time.



Very funny.


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 13, 2009 -- 1:38AM, Kartari wrote:

 Check out my Astrology Resources topic here at bnet.  Also, Steven Forrest is a famed astrologer who runs Kepler College, a relatively new college, the first dedicated to astrological studies, where people might be researching astrology.  Perhaps his website (www.stevenforrest.com) or his college's site (www.kepler.edu) reveal more info.



I tried a couple of times to link to www.stevenforret.com but his site is undergoing an update.   It is supposed to be ready in 15 mins.  It is 8PM now.



Works for me right now, but try stevenforrest.com/ (you missed the s in your post).


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:

I looked at www.kepler.edu and it is  an unaccredited college devoted primarly to the astrological "sciences(?)".



You're correct, my mistake.  Looks like they are seeking accreditation, but it requires several years, and kepler's been operational for only about that long.


kepler.edu/main/index.php?option=com_con...


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:

Being a skeptic I am......leery of biased sites.   I mean if I wanted to learn about the Catholic Church I would be foolish to go only to the Roman Catholic Church link to learn the truth.



I understand.


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:

I asked the internet goddess about kepler college


   ht


[edit] Criticism and controversy


John Silber, the rather 'hard line' & controversial chancellor of Boston University wrote, "The promoters of Kepler College have honored Kepler not for his strength but for his weakness, as if a society advocating drunkenness named a school for Ernest Hemingway."[10] Silber noted, "The fact is that astrology, whether judged by its theory or its practice, is bunkum. In a free society there is no reason to prevent those who wish to learn nonsense from finding teachers who want to make money peddling nonsense. But it is inexcusable for the government to certify teachers of nonsense as competent or to authorize - that is, endorse - the granting of degrees in nonsense."[11] The vice provost for research at the University of Washington, Alvin Kwiram, called the school "ludicrous", saying, "If I set up a college of tae kwon do, would they approve it? ... What if we had a college of quack medicine?"[12]


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_College




Well, it is never the case that even the most respected members of society will always be right.  How many people refused to accept that the Earth revolved around the sun, or thought atomic energy was nonsense?


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:

I never heard of Steven Forrest until you mentioned him.  But then I am not....into astrology.



He's one of the most famous and respected astrologers around... at least within the astrological community. :)


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:


The claims of astrology are:


"Astrology (from Greek ἄστρον, astron, "constellation, star"; and -λογία, -logia, "the study of") is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs which hold that the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details can provide information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters.


Correct.  I guess it would need to be regarded as belief since, to my knowledge at least, there is no real evidence for how astrology works.  The only evidence I know of is in the accuracy of its practice.



So if it is to be regarded as a "belief"  and no "real" evidence is avaible for how it works it would seem to be more of a......religion or art than a science. 


Has its accuracy been independently verified?


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

You walk through life not believing in psychics.  One day, you meet someone who is psychic and every day she tells you something specific about yourself or someone else that hasn't happened yet that comes to pass.  Coincidence?  Perhaps the first time... perhaps the second time... but after the tenth or hundredth time, you believe she really is psychic. 



Are astrologers psychics?   What does astrology have to do with being a pyschic abilities?


 Now I am sixty years old. I have never met a.....real psychic.  If I met someone who knew something was going to happen to me and proved it by correctly predicting events a hundred times then I would believe in pyschic clairvonce.



My point was not to make claims about psychic abilities, but to demonstrate how a person can come to see that astrology works.  Just as a psychic correctly predicting events time and time again would convince you of a psychic's efficacy, so I was convinced by accurate psychological portrayals and predictions of issues that arise with astrology time and time again.


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

 Do you understand how psychic abilities work.  No.  Does that mean it doesn't work?  No, it obviously does work from your experience.



I no more believe in psychic abilites than I do in astrology.   I have not seen either to be valid in my experince.



Fair enough.  My experiences have shown me otherwise.


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

I've been studying astrology for around ten years now and I have yet to find a single person that does not precisely match their birth chart (I've studied perhaps a few hundred).



Show me.  06/13/1949.  6:35 AM NYC.



Like I said, I'll do what I can and will get back to you.  For a full reading though you might consider visiting or getting a reading from Steven Forrest and other astrologers if you're willing to risk a few hundred dollars to test it.


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

No, I don't know why it works.  I am curious to know, but to my knowledge we remain in the dark as to how or why it works.  All I know is that in my experience, and in the experience of those I study with, it works quite accurately.



That has not been my experience.



Have you studied it?  For how long?


 


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:


Jun 6, 2009 -- 12:04PM, Kartari wrote:

I've had predictions come to pass with uncanny acccuracy, and other predictions never manifest.



Make me an uncannaly accurate prediction.



We'll see. :)


 


Jun 19, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Idbc wrote:

Apparently no one knows.



That seems to be the case.


 


I'll be back... peace. :)

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2009 - 12:18AM #15
Kartari
Posts: 2,170

Jun 10, 2009 -- 8:28PM, Idbc wrote:

So my sun sign has little or nothing to do with my personality.   My rising is more important.



No, both are important.  The sun does reflect the ego identity or personality, but the rising sign (aka ascendant) is how we come across to others: it shapes the sun, but does not repace it.


 


Jun 10, 2009 -- 8:28PM, Idbc wrote:

Now it is my understanding that some(most?) make natal charts i.e. when I slid down the ol birth canal so to speak. 


Others use "conception" charts.  Is either one more accurate in predicating personality?



I've never heard of this actually being practiced before.


Jun 10, 2009 -- 8:28PM, Idbc wrote:

Now Chinese Atrology is different. The have different signs.  Also I think the go by years.


I was born in 1949. My sign would be a Rat.  My characteristics and personality would be different. 


sandbox14.clearconceptsllc.com/rat.aspx


I ain't even gonna touch Muslim or Hindu Astrology.



It would be interestion though to get charts from each the different disciplines and compare them.



I agree, this would be very interesting.  I am curious to study other disciplines, but don't have the time right now.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2009 - 12:34AM #16
Kartari
Posts: 2,170

Jun 7, 2009 -- 1:10PM, ManzanitaBear wrote:

I haven't had time to read through this whole post, but....


Jun 7, 2009 -- 10:55AM, Idbc wrote:

But it is claimed that the astrology works due to the positions of celestial bodies not due to the seasons.  I was born on June 13.   I am a Gemini.   I have an interest in death, the occult, and nature.  Now I am not particulary ambitious, but I do know of other Geminis who are, and I know of Aries that are even less ambitious than I am. 


I think a more reasonable and scientific explanation for the various personalities are genetics and nurture.



Happy birthday!


Like we've discussed above, it evidently is about the position of the planets rather than the seasons--because sun signs are the same at the same time of year no matter where on the planet you are, but the northern and southern hemispheres have opposite seasons.  Your birthday makes you a Gemini whether you were born north or south of the equator, whether it was right before the summer solstice or right before the winter one.


And my thoughts on astrology were much like yours for years.  I was born on August 15th, which makes me a Leo--but I'm not outgoing or spontaneous, and not a natural leader, as Leos are supposed to be. I'm cautious, frugal, and introverted. It made more sense to me after I learned that my rising sign is Capricorn--its traits are mostly the direct opposite of Leo's, and your rising sign is what informs the personality you present to the world.  And it made even more sense after our resident astrology student here, Kartari, told me that Capricorn rising puts my Leo sun in the eighth house, which is the house of Scorpio, and gives my sun sign Scorpio traits as well as Leo ones.


So if you were to learn your entire birth chart, not just your sun sign, you may see more about yourself in it.  That doesn't necessarily make it a science, but it does mean astrology can tell us some things about ourselves.


Edit: Born at 6:35 am that close to the summer solstice and that far north (I just saw that last part of your post), odds are that your rising sign is Cancer.  Off the top of my head, it seems like that would mute the Gemini traits quite a bit.  And perhaps having your sun in the twelfth house, which is likely if your rising sign is the one after your sun sign, also does something there? I'm sure Kartari, or someone else well versed in astrology, could tell us more if you're interested.  I'm just a raw beginner myself.



Excellent thinking MB.  Not only does IDBC in fact have Cancer Rising, and not only is the sun in the 12th house, but there is a four planet stellium in the 12th house!  Talk about withdrawal from society, my friend!


IDBC, I will return with more information another time, as it's getting late... I just happened to put your info into my chart software and noticed the strong support for both what MB stated about you and what you revealed yourself about being inactive etc..  The 12th house is very much about withdrawal from society and activity in the world, and can manifest in a number of ways, and suggests an introverted and "go with the flow" type of personality... more later.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2009 - 7:46PM #17
darkthroneofeth
Posts: 153

Yes.  It fits all the prerequisites and formulation systems of a "science".  Check out "The General Principles of Astrology" by Crowley and Adams and prove it to yourself.

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5 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2009 - 11:44PM #18
Kartari
Posts: 2,170
IDBC, you still there?  Sorry, I've been very busy... this is my first time logging back in since June. :/
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 03, 2010 - 6:36PM #19
Idbc
Posts: 4,597

Howdy Dark


Sep 3, 2009 -- 7:46PM, darkthroneofeth wrote:


Yes.  It fits all the prerequisites and formulation systems of a "science".  Check out "The General Principles of Astrology" by Crowley and Adams and prove it to yourself. 



What precisely are all the prerequisites and formulation systems of a "science". 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology


 


 


So Aleister Crowley the  alleged Satanist is a scientist???????


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You Smile


 

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 01, 2010 - 3:26PM #20
Idbc
Posts: 4,597

Howdy


It is my understanding  that astrology works on the claim that a person's personality can be determined based on the location and time a person was born and that the position of celestial bodies, planets, stars, etc. will have an influence on the life of that person. 


I have thought of a scientific experiment to test the validity of these claims.  


A group of pregnant women, who have similar due dates can be gathered together to give birth to their babies.   All the women have their children at the same place and at the same time.   According to the claim as I understand it all the people born should have either the same or very similar personalities.   All the children should be affected in the same way throughout their lives by the position of celestial bodies.  


At various points in their lives data can be collected to verify the validity of the intial claims made by astrology.   


Would such an experiment be valid? 


Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You  Smile


 


 

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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