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4 years ago  ::  Jan 21, 2009 - 3:38AM #61
Blü
Posts: 21,174
.
I've enjoyed reading the various tales in this thread.  I was a bit non-plussed with the idea that when, while taking a shower, you call out your sister's name, and an unknown female voice answers instead, your response is to continue your shower unconcerned.  Unidentified people at large in my house would get me moving immediately.

A friend of my father told this tale. In his student days he and a buddy were out camping, and were awoken in fright by a horse galloping through their campsite in the dark of night. He then told of hearing his buddy recount the event at various times over the years, gradually improving till it had grown into a full-blown ghost story.  (Of course, it could have been my father's friend who was inventing a good tale, rather than his alleged buddy.)

And earlier in the thread someone observed that ghosts very much tend to appear to people who see ghosts. I think that must be correct - skeptics report very few encounters and some people - including a lady on Bnet not present in this thread - report so many that ghosts are almost routine.  It simply means that the more readily you allow supernatural explanations for odd events, the more supernatural explanations you'll adopt.

My own story is like this.  It's a bit after 8 am on a cloudless summer morning that's going to be a scorcher.  I'm waiting for my friends to come back from breakfast and pick me up.  We've stayed overnight with student friends in another city, in a very large two-storey brick house that's marked for demolition - indeed the long boundary wall had a notable bow in it.  The student friends of ours who rent the house have all gone off to work or lectures &c.  I wander back through the house wondering if I've left anything behind.  In the alcove under the long straight staircase in the hall is a small table with the phone on it.  Recalling that I made a couple of calls, I wander over to check it.  As I stand there, someone walks across the upstairs landing and runs down the stairs.  Wondering who's still at home, I step out to look.  The footsteps run quickly and lightly past my nose, but there's no one there to make them.  The hair on the back of my neck stands on end and I decamp at great speed out into the sunlight.

Years later I came on a statement in a book.  It said that the frames of old houses can shift, and this can induce each of the stairs to spring one after the other as the stresses realign, giving a sound very like someone running down it.  This is most likely to happen either as the house heats up in the morning, or cools in the evening.

I think that's exactly what happened.

But then, I would, wouldn't I.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2009 - 7:27PM #62
Erey
Posts: 15,127

inthemidstwest wrote:

That all sounds fine and good, but here lies the problem.  If any skeptic pays to go on any type of paranormal tour, they will automatically be inclined to think of it as smoke and mirrors, so to speak. Personally, I do believe in a spiritual plane.  However, my beliefs/personal experiences are not the same as scientific proof. I truly hope one day an able bodied scientist can prove communication on a different spiritual plane through some type of electro-magnetic device.  Wouldn't that be cool?  At the very least, it would dwindle down the number of bogus touguides trying to profit on the vulnerable or easily deceived.  THEN maybe parapsychology and paranormal research can regain some credibility.


see, i totally see that as a possiblility.  Why not?  What would stop a scientist from obtaining proof?  Regardless of what people do with that proof is something else all togheter.

I do feel like this level of trustworthy scientific proof would be enough to facilitate a paradigm shift of sorts.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2009 - 8:25PM #63
mountain_man
Posts: 34,185

Erey wrote:

... What would stop a scientist from obtaining proof?...


The complete and utter lack of any proof what so ever would he quite a hindrance to obtaining proof.

I do feel like this level of trustworthy scientific proof would be enough to facilitate a paradigm shift of sorts.


So far it has not caused any paradigm shift. Those that believe in ghosts and such will not accept any scientific findings that show that ghosts do not exist. THEY are the ones that need to change their believing, not the scientists or skeptics.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2009 - 8:25PM #64
mountain_man
Posts: 34,185

Erey wrote:

... What would stop a scientist from obtaining proof?...


The complete and utter lack of any proof what so ever would he quite a hindrance to obtaining proof.

I do feel like this level of trustworthy scientific proof would be enough to facilitate a paradigm shift of sorts.


So far it has not caused any paradigm shift. Those that believe in ghosts and such will not accept any scientific findings that show that ghosts do not exist. THEY are the ones that need to change their believing, not the scientists or skeptics.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2009 - 2:32PM #65
inthemidstwest
Posts: 136

Erey wrote:

see, i totally see that as a possiblility.  Why not?  What would stop a scientist from obtaining proof?  Regardless of what people do with that proof is something else all togheter.

I do feel like this level of trustworthy scientific proof would be enough to facilitate a paradigm shift of sorts.


I totally see that as a possibility, too.   :)  I'm not sure what some people are referring to as ghosts in this discussion. But without proof, it's a hard pitch to sell.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2009 - 5:52PM #66
hailtothesquirrel
Posts: 287
Consider too that scientists do not "prove" things. To "prove" something has to do with providing evidence to someone that hasn't seen it.

A scientist's job is to attempt to explain the natural world. What causes decay? Where do babies come from? What causes a plant to germinate? Why do birds fly south? etc.

IF there were some sort of strange phenomenon that we call ghost AND it was captured on film and witnessed by the scientist him/herself, they would still only be able to say "yes there is a strange shape that looks like a person that appears in this house from time to time."

At which point there is no proving. The scientist then moves on to what is it? How is it appearing? What is it made of? What causes it? Just seeing it and filming it won't constitute as proof to a good scientist.

Think of it this way. If a person were to take a photo and a personal experience and say "it's a ghost", then there is no real learning involved. A scientist always wants to know why. An analogy: we wouldn't know a thing about cultivation or how a tree grows if we stopped at "God did it."

So even if these things existed, there is no such thing as proof. Only more questions.
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